Frozen comb affect fertility??

Now I dont put much stock in wise tales. Never have. I do not come from a frozen place like Canada (I know, I shouldnt pick on it) and have never had a chicken, rooster, or anything else with anything frostbitten on it. I had a guy come out here and saw one of the roos that is going for meat (they dont have a heater) and he has two points that are frost bitten. He was saying that frostbitten combs and/or wattles will kill the fertility of the rooster. Now, logical thinking tells me no it wont. I mean if any other animals looses any part of its body other then those necessary for the reproduction act, it can still reproduce. Why the heck would a frost bitten comb cause a rooster to go infertile. So, for those that have ever had a rooster with a frost bitten comb, is it true or not? Does frostbite on a comb and/or wattles cause a rooster to become infertile? If it is true (which I still cant logically figure out) HOW? I know this may sound dumb to most of you, but seriously. I grew up in Florida and California (southern). No snow, no subzero temps, no frost bite.

Well, I was born and raised in Canada, and I am surprised to here of this myself. I can't see how it makes any sense either, so I am anxiously waiting to here what the experts say right beside you.

my splash orp roo has a frozen comb.. I can assure you it does not affect his fertility.

I really think this is a good point to discuss. If it did affect fertility, I would think that it would only affect it for a short period of time.

DoubleSS, are you incubating right now and tested the eggs for fertility. I don't doubt your word, well, I kind of do. I say this because maybe you are thinking that the rooster is still randy, that has nothing to do with fertility actually. Not trying to start an argument, but just because a rooster is a horny thing, doesn't mean that he might not be shooting blanks.

I think that there could be some credibility to a rooster's fertility decreasing with frozen comb things going on. This is only thought though, nothing, absolutely nothing to back up what I am thinking.

I would think that a frozen comb causes stress in many ways. Mostly stress (I think that the frozen comb might be painful), stress from trying to rejuvenate that flesh that is perishing, stuff like that. So I know in many species of life, stress causes things to happen, that we can't control, like depression, etc. Would a rooster be depressed with a frozen comb? Who knows, but I think that while his body is recovering that the sperm may not be as plentiful. Roosters' testes become smaller in the cold times, enlarging when the warmer times come, perhaps that could go hand in hand with a frozen comb.

I would love to hear if anyone has read any studies on this, I am sure there are mountains of information out there. Bring it on!! Have a beautiful day, CynthiaM.

Once the comb heals and the roo gets plump again, his fertility returns. While it's sore, he may not eat much and keep to himself. It all depends on how badly it got frozen. If a fox drove him off and he was in the woods for some days in very cold weather, he will be thinner and sore where the comb froze back. When it heals and he gets fat again, his eggs hatch just fine............I have living proof running around the barn, chicks.

Jocelyn

I have heard this before as well. I have no experience with it though. The only thing I can think of is that it may change the blood flow in the body. Isn't the comb like a big radiator for the bird? I suppose the stress of it repairing itself could be an issue too.

I can personally attest to this and it is absolutely true.
I keep good incubator records and it proved to me beyond a doubt that a frozen comb has huge impact on fertility.

Last winter I had my breeding pens in a big old barn that was not insulated other than straw bales lining the walls. I had 2 groups in there, buff orps and white chanteclers and when the extreme cold hit in Februrary, even heat lamps couldnt keep the poor things warm enough. The Orpington rooster froze his comb badly one cold,cold night. The worst I've ever seen - he lost all the points.
The hens continued to lay and I collected the eggs several times per day. But even when the temps improved, fertility remained very poor in the buff orps until that poor rooster was healed.
The last batch I collected again had very good fertility. It was just during the freezing and healing period that it fell to about 1/2 of what I'd experienced before and after.
Out of 51 eggs in that batch, 23 were infertile and did not begin to develop. The Chanties were not affected and every egg I collected hatched.
I also thought this was just a tale, but now I know it is completely true.
By the way, that barn has now been completely renovated and is well insulated. I won't be putting any chickens through that again!

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Good Post! It makes sense that if the Rooster is in pain he would be less likely to feel like breeding the ladies.
I try my best to prevent putting my birds through any pain. So I keep them in insulated coops with heat. I try to keep the coop just above freezing, mainly to keep the waterers free of ice.

KathyS, not to contradict you...but I'm going to.

I do not doubt your findings. I beleive that your drop in winter fertility is correct. I would question your conclusion though. There are other factors that have to be taken into account. One of them is purebreds. Purebreds have the reputation for not breeding as well as mutts. They often have lower fertility rates, just cause.

My own findings contradict yours. I do most of my hatching over the winter months. My AUstralorp roo froze his glorious comb off badly! I had 100% fertility rate! Frozen comb, that boy was on the job! Put eggs in the bator all winter long (in past years, not so much recently)He was with mutt hens and I hatched mutt babies (my hatch rates were not great, but that is a separate issue altogether).

However, at the same time I had my Ameraucana roo in with my Ameraucana hens, I wanted to hatch some blue eggs and guess what....fertility was the craps! And he had a small comb that was NOT frozen. SO what was his excuse? They were purbreds and this is simply a problem that crops up more frequently in purebreds than mutts. Lower fertility rates, and they are not frozen comb related.

The other thing that no one has mentioned is the willingness of the hen. SOme hens will refuse a rooster and thus you might wrongly assume he is not up to snuff when in fact, your hen has a headache. Fertility might be lower in winter because hens have some natural idea that hatching babies in cold weather reduces their chances of survival. The thrust of most species is to have babies that live, not spend energy having babies that are likley to die. It makes sense that HENS are less receptive in winter and therefore this problem might have nothing to do with the rooster at all. Frozen comb or not.

From Poultry Science, 1927:
The Effects of Freezing the Combs of Breeding Males*
LOYAL F. PAYNE and CLYDE INGRAM

Abstract

That the severe freezing of the comb and wattles of breeding cockerels is detrimental to their usefulness has long been understood by poultry raisers. The duration and extent of the injury has been estimated by different authorities to extend over a period of several weeks. The authors were able to secure definite information on this subject during the winter of 1925–26.

Eight pens of Single Comb White Leghorns, each consisting of one vigorous cockerel and 10 pullets, were used in the experiment. Thursday evening, January 21, 1926 group one consisting of four White Leghorn cockerels was placed on top of a fattening battery out doors on the north side of a building. The weather previously had been considerably below freezing and some of the cockerels had their combs partially frosted when placed out doors for the night. The following morning, January 22, the official weather reporter announced the temperature . . . [truncated by journal]

Hutt reports that this article states that reduction of fertility doesn't persist more that 11 days in Kansas, but suggests that "matters might be more serious at Murmansk".

I think I need to clearify.

A frozen comb while frozen or healing, yes, I can see that affecting the fertility as it affects the health of the bird.

I was speaking in long term, does a frozen comb even after healing affect it. I can not see that.

Also, I have to disagree with one comment. That a bird with a frozen comb is not going to be fighting and having scuffs. Both my orpington boys are still mating, having scuffs, and have frost bitten combs. It has already been -30 here and even with lamps, it hasnt kept it warm enough to not freeze.

Uno, you brought up some good points there. No doubt the fertility rate naturally improved with spring approaching. He was feeling better, comb healed and spring fever hits. The girls are probably more receptive at that time too.

I can't agree with the fact that they are purebreds and less fertile because of that. As I mentioned the Chanteclers maintained 100% fertility throughout the same time period. The Orp group never reached that same level of excellence - they were averaging 64% of live, healthy chicks. So that included embryos that quit after starting etc.

I do wonder if the egg temperature played a part though. Maybe those eggs layed during that wicked cold snap during and following the frost-bitten comb just got too cold. Maybe the Chantecler hens tend to stay in the nest longer, keeping that teeny little embryo from reaching the point of no return?

Thinking about this again, the fertility issue would not have revealed itself right away anyway. The hens would have retained sperm for a week or 2 before the fertility falling off. But that does make sense, since it was several weeks before I started getting really good fertile eggs again.

My findings werent scientific, but I do know that frost bite played a part in the fertility issues. I'm just so glad to know this won't be a factor during the upcoming season.

Where the heck is Murmansk?

Allow me to add more pertinent research.

From Hen House Science, 2009
The Effects of Freezing on Male Fertility.
Elmer Fudd and Wile E. Coyote,

Abstract

The effects of freezing on the rooster was found, in the winter of 2009, to be far more detrimental to the fertility rate than previously thought. A report from the early 20s, finding freezing near Murmansk to be detrimental to chicken nooky, did not nearly cover the depth of the problem.

IN 2009, Fudd and Coyote undertook an actaual sperm count as oppposed to focusing on the egg as the indicator of fertility. Not only had the combs of the test roosters been damaged by freezing, but apparently so had their breeding apparatus, as no penises could be found! Thus no sperm samples were able to be collected. The conclusion is that the effects of freezing is far more harmful than first imagined. Knitted wool caps were the end suggestion of this scientific research but insulated underwear might also be in order in places with the weather conditions of Murmansk.

Fudd and Coyote went on to find fame with the Warner Brothers Laboratories where a talking duck and Foghorn Leghorn were also employed.

This is bugging me!

Let's get a few things straight. How many eggs hatch IS NOT related to fertility. We all agree on that.

But I think checking egg 'start' rates as an indicator of fertility is inaccurate. To really see if a frozen combs affects the rooster, you'd need to do sperm counts. Sperm count before freezing, sperm count after freezing. Is there a drop in actual sperm production? If there is a noticeable drop in sperm production then I would concede that frost bite, for reasons that make no sense to me, affects a roosters sperm count.

However, if a rooster with a frozen comb exhibits reduced sexual activity which results in fewer fertilized eggs...that is a whole other ball game. Then the conclusion should be that roosters whose heads are killing them because they are frozen and painful, do not feel like doing it with hens. THey are less sexually active. But less sexually active DOES NOT mean they are less fertile.

We know that hens store sperm. Can they decide when to use it or not? Does a hen have any influence over her own fertility? Have hens heard about equal rights? SOme animals store semen and use it as they see fit, does a hen do this? Maybe the effects of cold temps are a deciding factor for a hen to lay a fertile egg or not. I do not know the answer to this, but until I do, I am still unconvinced that the conclusion of frozen comb=less fertility has been clearly explained. SOmething seems to be up, but what?

Murmansk, Russia. Cold place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murmansk

Uno, totally agree, but not just on weither it affects sperm count, but for how long. For example, someone can do a study and find that yes, it does affect it while the bird is healing (which can be due to lower physical well being) and say that it does. However, they can do that same study on birds that have already healed and are back to normal behavior and find that the counts are the same and say that it does not. There should be a study over a long term period (for chickens) on weither it affects it, how badly, and for how long. Until that is done, everyone will have their own opinion.

uno wrote:Where the heck is Murmansk?

Allow me to add more pertinent research.

From Hen House Science, 2009
The Effects of Freezing on Male Fertility.
Elmer Fudd and Wile E. Coyote,

Abstract

The effects of freezing on the rooster was found, in the winter of 2009, to be far more detrimental to the fertility rate than previously thought. A report from the early 20s, finding freezing near Murmansk to be detrimental to chicken nooky, did not nearly cover the depth of the problem.

IN 2009, Fudd and Coyote undertook an actaual sperm count as oppposed to focusing on the egg as the indicator of fertility. Not only had the combs of the test roosters been damaged by freezing, but apparently so had their breeding apparatus, as no penises could be found! Thus no sperm samples were able to be collected. The conclusion is that the effects of freezing is far more harmful than first imagined. Knitted wool caps were the end suggestion of this scientific research but insulated underwear might also be in order in places with the weather conditions of Murmansk.

Fudd and Coyote went on to find fame with the Warner Brothers Laboratories where a talking duck and Foghorn Leghorn were also employed.

Uno, you are fiesty aren't you?

Katsuki, how kind of you. I've heard many words to describe me, some of them start with F, but feisty is not the more usual one. But I will accept it graciously.

Every now and then I like to make fun of my very cerebral and good friend, ipf. She would describe me with F words. NOT fiesty.

CynthiaM wrote:

DoubleSS, are you incubating right now and tested the eggs for fertility. I don't doubt your word, well, I kind of do. I say this because maybe you are thinking that the rooster is still randy, that has nothing to do with fertility actually. Not trying to start an argument, but just because a rooster is a horny thing, doesn't mean that he might not be shooting blanks.
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He froze his comb last winter, not this one, and I have pullets from eggs fertilized by him, I surely do beleive it has no affect on fertility. Over 90% of eggs incubated from him in this last year were fertile (there are a few hens in that henhouse that I do beleive dont let any rooster seduce them). I have a number of beautiful blue pullets running around to prove it Such lovely little ladies!

Just read the rest of the posts. Maybe my boy got lucky, not sure. But I can assure you that he is fertile

In general, in large populations, on average, freezing combs reduces fertility. There are (clearly, form the posts here) exceptions, but the general princciple was clearly demonstrated decades ago.

Pardon my stubborn skepticism, but many things that were clearly proven decades ago have turned out to be patently wrong! So, with that in mind, I say it is not enough for a study to declare that frozen combs reduce fertility, without adding in the crtitical information of HOW EXACTLY frozen combs reduce fertility. I'm not saying this information is wrong. I am saying this information is grossly incomplete. If the people who conducted these studies have no further information than "yup, we found that freezed combs make them thar chickens have lesser chicken babies" then this research should be used to start a fire. Or wrap a fish.

For this research to have any credibility it must (in my vastly scientific mind) explain if A) hens are turned off by roostes with frozen combs and thus less sexual activity resuts in lower fertility B) roosters with aching heads do not want to mate and thus, there is lower fertility C) the cold winter months have reduced fertility, or not, in all egg laying creatures and thus lower fertility or D) a roosters comb is directly attached to his testicles and when one is frozen, so is the other.

IT is not enough for me to accept this blanket statement without knowing more about how the research was conducted. And as anyone who has ever taken a statistics course will attest, nothing tells a lie better than a statistic! So if this finding is based on statistical evidence of lowered fertility, it is based on thin air! I need a more complete picture to be a believer. Not that I'm all that motivated to research this stuff, which I could, I do have Google.

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Anybody know how to "collect" a rooster, ie, get a semen sample from him? It's not so bad, and it would solve a question or two. One would need, humm, what would one need, OK, a Vet or Doctor willing to do a sperm count, samples from several dozen(?) roos, including some who had frozen their combs previously. If the used to be frozen ones are much below the sperm count of the pooled sample, the next question is, how long does that last. Any takers?