Over half the flock, gone.

Firstly, I need to thank Flicker Chick for taking my call. I really needed to talk to someone who wasn't a city-going friend of mine and would -get- it. I was pretty bland and sarcastic by the time she chose to deal with me, and I appreciate her greatly.

At the time, it was almost 85% of my chickens gone. Over the last hour and a half or so, the numbers have gone up from the hiding birds finding their way home in the coming darkness. Mostly younger birds are gone, but I was forced to put one hen down who was completely mangled and chewed on, but still alive. Some of my most beautiful project birds of this hatch are gone and others, I'm sure, will die of shock. We still have the turkeys and guineas. I assume the guineas flew, and I know the turkey's lived by hunkering down, same as my broody girls did; I nearly stepped on the toms who were held up in the tall grass, on a patch near dirt and brown rubble, so they cammoed really well. My roo from Chantecler Eh is fine, in fact, most roos survived.

The puppies escaped their kennel on the day I chose to leave the birds out so the door would be open and it could air out. Of course. My knee jerk reaction was they have to go, but really, I'm not at that point anymore after a good cry. Just need to buck up and get that run built and put a lock on the flippy door holder thing so they cant break it out.

Unfortunately, this means that although I'll be at the sale I'm hosting with Lou, I'll have little, if anything to sell. Guess I'll be buying.

So sorry to read this Sweetened. It is so upsetting to lose birds, then to lose so many to your own pups is awful. Hopefully
things will get better? Really don't know what else to say except I'm really sorry it happened.  

*huggs* Apoligies but I don't have the right words to say. I can't imagine how awful you must feel.

Oh Sweetened. I know that feeling, with your heart in your shoes, that disbelief. Disheartening and a set back and days like this make you wonder what the hell is the point? Sorry about this. Truly.

Sickening! Don't know what else to say....

That sucks! I feel for you!

Your puppies are lucky to have you ... if that was here, I'd be shooting some puppies!

authenticfarm wrote:That sucks! I feel for you!

Your puppies are lucky to have you ... if that was here, I'd be shooting some puppies!

 Like wise for me as well , those puppies are indeed lucky that you have them , wouldn't be around very long with me

I don't understand the point of shooting dogs who killed birds because I couldn't contain them and left my birds out willy nilly. Punishing your own domestic dog with death for following a natural instinct, a dog you've watched grow from only hours after their birth, seems a little heartless to me. I'm not in this to be heartless, I'm in this for the connection with my food and all that goes with it.

By the damage to the hen I put down, I would say the dogs chased, caught, played with (ie tore apart while alive) the birds and then finished them off when they stopped breathing. Not a fun reality, a torturous one really, but food seems to have been the afterthought. They're puppies, and they do the same with the cats but those cats fight back with claws that speak louder than a prey animal that tries to run instead of fight. I don't condone what they did, but I don't think they deserve to die for my failure to protect my birds.

The best of us have lost animals to predation, even through fort-nox style fencing. Whether it's your dog, the neighbours dog, a bobcat, coyote or bear, it's all a very natural process. The difference is, I suppose, If I know I did my best to keep my animals out but failed to do so, over another person's animal or a wild one. Even with wild ones, other than yotes I'd be conflicted on the kill.

I suppose I'm just not like other people.

Example of how I was not sure if I wanted to answer and make a post, but I am compelled. Sweetened, crap stuff for surely. I have lost a bird now and then to dogs, none of my own, but people visiting the farm, it is crappy, any way you look at it. Guess you will have to get more birds, or maybe stick with birds that are more prone to getting away. Wish there was something better to say, but just is not, with that, try to find something good in this day, there is always something that can make you smile, CynthiaM.

Been there, done that (or at least something similar). Crap happens. You'll do better next time.

I never mentioned distroying the dogs , but they would be gone .............given away etc .My brother once had a dog that got  into the broiler chickens we were raiseing and in a flash it had killed around 15 birds just for "" fun "" .We didn't distroy the dog , but it never wanted to see another chicken again once we had taught it a few lessons .In hind sight we should have distroyed him .................he attacked my steer a month later and tore a huge part out of front shoulder ! We then had no choice but to distroy him .Sometimes it's better to stay on the safe side and not let emotions decide what we do ? We all love our pets / dogs , but there is a time when we have to see that something might need to be done or have a repeat of a situation .But as you mentioned ? killing isn;t always the best solution and I hope you find yours in this matter

I agree with you Sweetened. Dogs, especially puppies, chase and play. My breed is very terrier like and left to their own devices would wipe out every animal I own. It is their nature and what makes them poor farm dogs makes them great mousers.

Also, don't ignore the pack mentality. What one dog may never do alone, several dogs may do in a group.

Sadly we get back to the subject of good fences. Not just having them but using them effectively, and this means remembering to use them. I have been in your place and lost stock because I have forgotten to latch or left an animal out. You feel badly but you learn as well.

I hope your breeding project is not too badly damaged by loss of stock and you can recover.

So sorry about what has happened, you will recover and lessons learned  

Schipperkesue wrote:I agree with you Sweetened.  Dogs, especially puppies, chase and play.  My breed is very terrier like and left to their own devices would wipe out every animal I own.  It is their nature and what makes them poor farm dogs makes them great mousers.

Also, don't ignore the pack mentality.  What one dog may never do alone, several dogs may do in a group.  

Sadly we get back to the subject of good fences.  Not just having them but using them effectively, and this means remembering to use them.  I have been in your place and lost stock because I have forgotten to latch or left an animal out.  You feel badly but you learn as well.

I hope your breeding project is not too badly damaged by loss of stock and you can recover.

It is very much the pack mentality. Thats why we tried to bring our numbers all the way down and just haven't gotten there. Half the pups are sold and 3 were supposed to stay. We'll end up with 4. Bull is up there in years, Lola is at half life. It's a non issue when they're outside most of the day, they just happened to jailbreak the day I decided to leave the birds out to free range -- who's stupid idea was a flippy closure on a $300 dog run -- ugh. For the mark up they could include a better latching system.

We'll go back to birds out from 9-10pm until we get the run pens built up. These dogs have been amazing coyote killers, and I can't just forget that's the reason they are there. I thought, last night, I'll just get a couple alpaca that HATE dogs and have them live with my chickens. Then, the dogs can protect the property and goats, and the alpaca's can protect the birds. Brillian plan, methinks.

Alpacas are much too small to be any predator deterant. We had a young llama that was brought down by a coyote or pack of coyotes while we were away many years ago, they are there to deter predators but do not have the ability to defend themselves against them.
Pack mentality in dogs/coyotes/wolves, etc they will bring down anything. You need to teach the pups one at a time to respect the livestock.
I know you did your part in getting a kennel or the pups, and you probably wouldn't have had the issues if they didn't get out on you but it is still a good decision to take the time with each pup to teach them the livestock is not a toy.

Hidden River wrote:it is still a good decision to take the time with each pup to teach them the livestock is not a toy.

Couldn't agree more, Miss Hidden. I will continue to work on it.

 

I think we've all experienced predation (wild and/or domestic) to some degree or another at some point. There are no words for how bloody awful the aftermath is...or how much it hurts.  

I'm glad to hear more birds found their way home.

Let me know when run building day will be, and if I'm able and you're so inclined, I could lend you my woman power for the day. I'm fully trained in working power tools and can hammer with the best of them!

Fowler wrote:Been there, done that (or at least something similar).  Crap happens.  You'll do better next time.

Couldn't say it better myself. I now have THREE latches on the chicken run - looks like a Manhattan loft.

Your awful experience reminds me of a similar one that happened in 1993. Youngish, high energy dog, not properly trained to respect the birds, unwisely left loose and unsupervised...a recipe for disaster. We were both gone to work for the day and came home to carnage. He had forced his way under/through the fence and spent his afternoon chasing, terrorizing and killing the ducks and chickens. Hubby thought we should shoot him, but I wanted to re-home him. We were totally honest about what had happened with the new owner - a farm with no chickens or ducks. within 6 months he was destroyed after going on a rampage and killing the new owner's young pigs.
Believe me, my dear this incident with stay with you forever. And it will change the way you do things so that such a horrible thing will never happen again.
I'm so sorry you had to go through this, but many of us have.

I'm so sorry sweetened I agree about not shooting the pups that would of been my first reaction. Any way if there is any birds I have you would like let me know. I have a few Turkey hens and lots of Toms I would give you a pair if you need. I'm not sure if you would be interested in any of the birds from the PP order but I could give you some of them if they work in your program.Thanks for your support and understanding and as an old friend used to say "Dont let it get you Down"

Thanks DLC. Please let me know if you need anything as well, you know my offer is still open We'll maybe come out for coffee or something and I'll buy a couple lovely birds from you if you dont think you'll make it to the sale.

As Hidden said, I will be working with each dog on an individual basis. A leash and a quick snap to the side will solve problems really quickly.

Despite looking, we have resisted getting other livestock until there is fencing in place for them. The next livestock will also be bigger and I'll teach the dogs they either respect or get stomped on by said animal.

If they have to spend their unmonitored lives locked up, they will do so. We have an area set aside for them which is the size of a standard city lot, give or take, and I will have no issues leaving them in there while they are unmonitored. I will also be driving down stakes and they can learn to live on those until they show some respect.

Like so many, we're just another couple farmers who build their small farm around their dogs.

Sweetened wrote:
 I thought, last night, I'll just get a couple alpaca that HATE dogs and have them live with my chickens.  Then, the dogs can protect the property and goats, and the alpaca's can protect the birds.  Brillian plan, methinks.

having raised alpacas, I will tell you with all certainty alpacas will NOT protect. at all. they are a flight animal, not a fight. not even when the group of alpacas is large enough (at one time I had close to eighty males alone, which is a fair size when they decide to group together and take a stand...) the most they will do is band together themselves... but they cannot and will not fight off a dog, or anything else....

I will put on my thinking cap for you though and see what I can come up with ??? Llama is also not exactly a great option, as they like to bond and stick with other four legged creatures and may not see the chickens as their job....


I am so dreadfully sorry to hear of your loss! I did have some successful hatchings, if you need any chickens let me know (I also have some really pretty mutts hatching right now, they are a salmon faverolle/ISA cross--- awesome colour/markings, and should be good egg layers... I could set the ones that are due to hatch this weekend aside for you?? I think there should be four or five for sure, plus at least one more from three weeks ago... OR I can set another batch of the mutts under my brooder and let her go at it again -- but the most she can handle is seven eggs at a go since she is a bantam)

sorry Sweetened.
puppies are puppies..they explore the world, chase things and they chew things.  What fun a bunch of chickens would be!  They cannot be held accountable at all...
I am sorry about your birds;...puppies and their antics do not make it any easier what you are dealing with.  It has happend...shit happens..
life goes on

Sweetened I have nothing new to add, but wanted to share my solidarity on the "pups being pups" thinking, and salute you for keeping a level head under what can only have been chaotic and very emotional circumstances. I don't know if your pups will be 'ruined' for life, and of course giving them a second chance someday will be risky, but I'm certain you'll be able to work with them and get your message across, and hopefully test them under supervision (hidden I suppose) someday, and have great success.

I know many of us have been in exactly your shoes, myself included, so I share your pain. I hope you can take up some of the kind offers of replacement birds and move forward from this sad time. You can't replace the lost lives but you can move on and continue your breeding program and eventually, recover in all the ways you need to.

Cheers, and a hug to you.