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debbiej wrote:

KathyS wrote:Well, I think it is disappointing that Rochester is now only offering two choices of turkey poults - the Orlopp Bronze or the Nicholas White. Those that would prefer a heritage turkey breed will have to order from another hatchery or find a breeder. This hatchery does offer a small selection of heritage breed chickens...so I guess I would expect a heritage alternative in the turkeys too.

I also agree that using the word "Heirloom" is misleading. Many people are going to order these thinking they are raising heritage turkeys. How many will be processed and mistakenly sold to consumers as Heritage Turkey? Does it matter? I think so. People have a right to know what they are buying and eating.

These turkeys resulted by breeding an English BBB to an American BBB, to produce the Orlopp, they aren't GMO'd there aren't any weird genes planted in them. I raised BSW and a friend raised Orlopps. I can't say that there was any difference in the turkeys meat quality or taste. It all depends on what you are feeding them, Good food and forage gives you good meat.

Thank-you Debbie! I have been quoting the last line about chickens as well. I plan to get some of those Cornish Crosses next year. The Frankenchickens. I have always raised them as free rangers with lots of added food and water and have found the result to be delish. No cardboard chicken here. I think we as small farmers need to be aware of spreading our possibly false beliefs about these relatively newly developed strains. Our bises are definitely showing. Sometimes it seems like kind of a snobbery that we engage in... "Well, I only breed HERITAGE birds! The rest are garbage you know."

Sue

Sue last year i raised Freedom Rangers, they were great! They were just like my heritage chickens, I never lost one. They free range they walked, they scratched, they were perfectly normal. I fed Top Shelf Grower and gave them COB, and veg and fruit scraps. The meat Inspector at Al's Feather Be Gone was most impressed with them.
The finished carcasses were great. Plump and delish not loaded with fat. I would try them. I processed some heritage breed roos and they were like a rubber chicken, no comparison

A couple of years ago I think it was Omega that said we should support local breeders rather than order stock from big hatcheries. Well, here is an opportunity.... there's lots of smaller breeders that can supply Heritage turkey varieties. Leave Rochester and other's to the commercial hybrids and support the local breeder.

turkeylurkey wrote:A couple of years ago I think it was Omega that said we should support local breeders rather than order stock from big hatcheries. Well, here is an opportunity.... there's lots of smaller breeders that can supply Heritage turkey varieties. Leave Rochester and other's to the commercial hybrids and support the local breeder.

This is something I truly try to live by. We don't use hatchery birds for anything on our farm. This means lots of work and some cost to find breeders of the various breeds of chickens and the beltsville turkeys we have, but I truly think that hatchery stock can't even begin to compare to the quality you get from smaller breeders. However, this message falls on deaf ears for the most part.

Schipperkesue wrote:

debbiej wrote:

KathyS wrote:Well, I think it is disappointing that Rochester is now only offering two choices of turkey poults - the Orlopp Bronze or the Nicholas White. Those that would prefer a heritage turkey breed will have to order from another hatchery or find a breeder. This hatchery does offer a small selection of heritage breed chickens...so I guess I would expect a heritage alternative in the turkeys too.

I also agree that using the word "Heirloom" is misleading. Many people are going to order these thinking they are raising heritage turkeys. How many will be processed and mistakenly sold to consumers as Heritage Turkey? Does it matter? I think so. People have a right to know what they are buying and eating.

These turkeys resulted by breeding an English BBB to an American BBB, to produce the Orlopp, they aren't GMO'd there aren't any weird genes planted in them. I raised BSW and a friend raised Orlopps. I can't say that there was any difference in the turkeys meat quality or taste. It all depends on what you are feeding them, Good food and forage gives you good meat.

Thank-you Debbie! I have been quoting the last line about chickens as well. I plan to get some of those Cornish Crosses next year. The Frankenchickens. I have always raised them as free rangers with lots of added food and water and have found the result to be delish. No cardboard chicken here. I think we as small farmers need to be aware of spreading our possibly false beliefs about these relatively newly developed strains. Our bises are definitely showing. Sometimes it seems like kind of a snobbery that we engage in... "Well, I only breed HERITAGE birds! The rest are garbage you know."

Sue

My comment was simply meant to express disappointment in a lack of choices for people ordering from this hatchery.

Many people wanting to raise a few turkey poults are not going to go hunting online, trying to find a local breeder to buy turkeys from. They will open their hatchery catalogue and make their choice out of what is offered there, just as they have done every year in the past.

I know what a hybrid is…I have raised enough of them over the years. I know that they are not some scary genetically modified beast with some other’s animals DNA inserted into their genes! It just another way of breeding bigger, faster growing poultry that is best suited for the commercial poultry barns and also the choice for anyone wanting a quick growing meat bird with the best feed to meat conversion rate.
I don't think they are garbage. Hybrids are probably the only way of continuing to feed the ever-growing world population. That is not being argued here.

I have chosen to be an advocate for the pure livestock breeds. I don’t mean to sound snobby or stuck up in doing so. I just feel that there are so many important reasons to keep the traditional breeds from falling out of use, and as a result going extinct. If the hatcheries offered an attractive alternative to the hybrids, it would spark people’s interest. Help educate them that there are choices out there and maybe even result in another farmer taking up the hobby of breeding.

To me, the pros to the consumer of buying a hybrid bird (or seed) is that they are getting a hardy, good product that has been created in order to create a superior product(in certain situtions...they would ideally be "better" than either parent as they have the best of both parents. The cons to the consumer would be that they cannot reproduce said hybrid themselves as they would not breed true.

The pros to the producer are that they now "hold the keys" if you will to the raw material for the recipe...they own the parent stock and may become the only ones who can "create" that particular recipe. The cons might be that they have to keep 2 distinct breeder flocks(or maybe many more depending on how many breeds and generations are in the cross) in order to produce their terminal cross flock (hybrids)

I can't see a problem with people breeding and selling hybrids of breeds...as long as they are still keeping the original parent breeds pure and to standard...and in my opinion it seems ethical to also offer those pure breeds for sale as well so that they are not the only ones controlling the market. Although I am sure hathcheries and seed breeders who have perfected their "recipe" may disagree with me and maybe rightly so?
I fear that if the main goal is to produce only terminal crosses, the standard of the original parent breeds may decline as it would not be as necessary to keep them up to standard.
This is why I think it is important that lots of people are still maintaining the pure breeds otherwise I could foresee a shortage in the future of the "raw ingredients" necessary to create the recipe.
It may be paranoia but I like to think of it as a bit of self sufficiency insurance that we retain the original (heritage or heirloom if you will) genetics in our flocks and gardens so that we will not become helpless and unable to create our own hybrids if we so desire to...
After all, most of the breeds we have now are hybrids in that they were "made" from crossing a few old breeds together in order to create a specific type of bird. Who is to say the best breed out there hasn't been created yet?

KathyS wrote:

Schipperkesue wrote:

debbiej wrote:

KathyS wrote:Well, I think it is disappointing that Rochester is now only offering two choices of turkey poults - the Orlopp Bronze or the Nicholas White. Those that would prefer a heritage turkey breed will have to order from another hatchery or find a breeder. This hatchery does offer a small selection of heritage breed chickens...so I guess I would expect a heritage alternative in the turkeys too.

I also agree that using the word "Heirloom" is misleading. Many people are going to order these thinking they are raising heritage turkeys. How many will be processed and mistakenly sold to consumers as Heritage Turkey? Does it matter? I think so. People have a right to know what they are buying and eating.

These turkeys resulted by breeding an English BBB to an American BBB, to produce the Orlopp, they aren't GMO'd there aren't any weird genes planted in them. I raised BSW and a friend raised Orlopps. I can't say that there was any difference in the turkeys meat quality or taste. It all depends on what you are feeding them, Good food and forage gives you good meat.

Thank-you Debbie! I have been quoting the last line about chickens as well. I plan to get some of those Cornish Crosses next year. The Frankenchickens. I have always raised them as free rangers with lots of added food and water and have found the result to be delish. No cardboard chicken here. I think we as small farmers need to be aware of spreading our possibly false beliefs about these relatively newly developed strains. Our bises are definitely showing. Sometimes it seems like kind of a snobbery that we engage in... "Well, I only breed HERITAGE birds! The rest are garbage you know."

Sue

My comment was simply meant to express disappointment in a lack of choices for people ordering from this hatchery.

Many people wanting to raise a few turkey poults are not going to go hunting online, trying to find a local breeder to buy turkeys from. They will open their hatchery catalogue and make their choice out of what is offered there, just as they have done every year in the past.

I know what a hybrid is…I have raised enough of them over the years. I know that they are not some scary genetically modified beast with some other’s animals DNA inserted into their genes! It just another way of breeding bigger, faster growing poultry that is best suited for the commercial poultry barns and also the choice for anyone wanting a quick growing meat bird with the best feed to meat conversion rate.
I don't think they are garbage. Hybrids are probably the only way of continuing to feed the ever-growing world population. That is not being argued here.

I have chosen to be an advocate for the pure livestock breeds. I don’t mean to sound snobby or stuck up in doing so. I just feel that there are so many important reasons to keep the traditional breeds from falling out of use, and as a result going extinct. If the hatcheries offered an attractive alternative to the hybrids, it would spark people’s interest. Help educate them that there are choices out there and maybe even result in another farmer taking up the hobby of breeding.

Never fear Kathy, I am not fingerpointing at you. I was just responding to Debbie's comment. My words reflect the general attitude I often hear amongst heritage breed advocates, and I am not innocent of this myself. I think many people tend to have a black and white attitude towards this issue and I would really love to hear more expressions of shades of grey!

Sue

I don't think the hybrids are garbage. I keep some myself. I just think it needs to be clear so a person knows what they're getting.

I like them all! And, I too understand both sides of things!

On one hand you have a lovely heritage breed that has been around for many years and was created for one reason or another. Then on the other hand you have a "commercial" bird that was also created for one reason or another, but someone was just smart enough (financially) to make it difficult for the average person to duplicate!

In my opinion they are all one in the same! They are all made up by selectively breeding certain birds to achieve a different bird that fits someones needs. However, some "Heritage" breeds are kept today primarily because they are now rare or prettier to look at than a white "Commercial Hybrid" bird that is produced for economic reasons!

To me, a true heritage bird is a wild Merriam's turkey or araucana or a Jungle Fowl chicken!