Moving on from Marek's -- Vaccination questions

Winston is no more.

Only days ago he came down with a limp sometime while I was at work and it wasn't getting any better. It seemed to improve in the morning and then be worse at night so I locked him up and confined him. When I returned home today, he was unable to walk or control his toes and once I had moved him, he had projectile diarhea. Moose put him down for me and I performed my own necropsy, as inexperienced as I am.

In comparing pictures, I have reason to believe the marks on his chest wall were lesions caused by Mareks, and the other symptoms seem to fit. I need advice on dealing with this. As an individual, I'm entirely against vaccines and so on, however I'm concerned about having to put down all of my flock because of an illness. I've read the vaccines are hit and miss, that turkey's naturally carry the virulent strain and can help chickens build up an immunity.

Mind you, I'm here to ask where I can buy the vaccine and how to administer it to my flock. If they have already been vaccinated by I don't know that, will it do any harm? Is there any point in vaccinating the current birds or just the ones I bring in? If I unknowingly bring in another infected bird and vaccinate that bird, will it have any detrimental effects or will it make a difference? Does Vaccinating for Marek's go against 'organic practices'? Is it worth it? Where do I buy it? If I vaccinate for a while can I cease vaccinations of birds born on the farm in the future and only vaccinate those from outside?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks so much.

There will be lots of opinions on whether or not to vaccinate and you will hear both sides.

A few answers to your some of your questions.
Chicks have to be vaccinated as day olds as soon as they are leaving the incubator. Mereks is carried in dander so they are exposed to it as soon as they breath outside air. From what I have read there is not much point in vaccinating older birds who have already been exposed. For your younger birds it will be a wait and see if it shows up. I dont think it is generally something to cull your entire flock for. You can purchase the vaccine from The poultry consultants in abbotsford I am pretty sure they will ship to other provinces. The other issue with the vaccine is they have designed it for commercial flocks so once you reonconstitute it it is only good for 24hrs and contains 1000 doses. Its is given to the chicks as an subQ ( under the skin) injection.

Personally I would vaccinate the breeds that are:

1) more susceptible to the disease &
2) Birds I dont want to risk losing that are my quality birds ( as chicks).

I also dont like the idea of eating a birds that has been vaccinated even though I am sure I have in any type of meat I buy but if I am raising it with that end purpose I dont.

I am sure you will get more answers to your questions.

Please, do NOT cull your flock! Really, don't even think of it. Mareks is in the air, it's everywhere, just one of those things. All our birds that range freely are exposed to it. Some breeds are more susceptible; some individuals within breeds are more susceptible. I hedge my bets by not vaccinating my own hatches, but having hatchery birds vaccinated.
I can provide lots of science refs, if you want, to support my position, but I'm really sure of this one - don't cull jsut because you find a bird with Marek's.

ipf wrote:Please, do NOT cull your flock! Really, don't even think of it. Mareks is in the air, it's everywhere, just one of those things. All our birds that range freely are exposed to it. Some breeds are more susceptible; some individuals within breeds are more susceptible. I hedge my bets by not vaccinating my own hatches, but having hatchery birds vaccinated.
I can provide lots of science refs, if you want, to support my position, but I'm really sure of this one - don't cull jsut because you find a bird with Marek's.

I think that is what I was most worried about, was having to start over. I don't think I would, not right now. I love chickens and chickening and I'm learning as I go (poor birds, really). I just didn't know if it was one of those cull things as most threads I've found on multiple websites adress identifying the illness, not so much treating an 'untreatable' disease.

Of all the people, I'm the one that doesn't require the scientific back-up against vaccinating. I avoid it like the plague, but this concerned me greatly and I thought I'd bother the people here with the question (again). Scientific evidence, whichever way it points and regardless of who or what funded the study, can still be trumped, I think, by personal experience (like diets and raw milk).

Thank you both for your answers, I appreciate your opinions. I still look forward to reading from others so I can make my final decision on the matter.

But truly, ipf, I'm greatful for you saying not to cull the whole flock.

Last year I bought hatchery Houdans. I lost many to Mareks. I bred the survivors. No Houdans got Mareks this year. I believe the chicks had immunity through the parents.

I know this will not be what some people want to here but here's my experience from last year as opposed to this year.

Last year I vaccinated every single chick that stayed on this farm against marek's for the first 4 months that I hatched. By the 4th month, I noticed that I was getting birds with classic marek's symptoms. Those birds were dispatched humanely once the signs were obvious. I stopped vaccinating after having to end the suffering of somewhere around the 12th juvenille bird. Not specific to one breed, all shapes and sizes were affected.

This year I have hatched three-fold the number of chicks that have been kept here. I refused to spend the hours vaccinating them all with the poor results I had the previous year. I have had ONE single cockerel that showed some signs of marek's, but only the wing drop and not leg paralysis so I can't say for sure that it was marek's vs injury. He didn't recover and was also dispatched humanely and quickly. The rest of my birds (the youngest of which are 3 months old now), have not had any symptoms or signs of marek's disease at all.

Now, this was only my experience. I recognize that I have no idea if last year was a bad year for marek's in the wild bird population or what. I don't know what effect (if any) that vaccinating last year's birds would have on this year's offspring. Presumably some of the vaccinated chicks grew into hens that made it into the breeding program, but I didn't keep 100% accurate records of who was vaccinated/not vaccinated.

I think it boiled down to this - for me, it was not worth the time and stress on the chicks of having to vaccinate them all when I didn't see enough of a positive result from the process. I figure that I will lose birds to marek's each year, how many - I don't know. But I don't feel that vaccinating them or not played a big role in the overall chance of survival.

(I am sorry, the font seems to be doing weird stuff for me)

I agree, don't dispatch your flock. The ones that don't succumb to it are the ones that are very valueable to you if you decide to breed for resistance. I also agree, you will get many different opinions about what to do. I will give you my personal experiences.

I managed to get a highly susceptible breed to a Mareks resistant status with commitment and time. It is possible, but you have to be very committed to it and harden your heart a bit. It is definitely possible to have a flock that is resistant, and it doesn't take 10 years but it does take a few years of real commitment to it. If you decide not to vaccinate, you must cull everything that shows signs of Mareks. Survivors are forever carriers and do not add to the resistance of your flock because they did actually succumb to Mareks, you want the ones that don't even succumb to it at all.

It is very important when you are going through this process, to not hatch eggs from pullets as they have not truley proved their resistant yet. Only hatch from year old hens and it will save you a lot of heartache if you have trouble dispatching birds.

I am happy to answer any questions you have about my experiences. Good luck on your decision for your flock.

Thank you to everyone again for their answers and personal experiences. I think it was as heartbreaking as it was because it was the pet bird that got struck with it. But, that's how things go I'm sure.

So I have another question then. I will be butchering most of the Roosters I have and I'm sure somewhere along the line I'll have to harvest the ISA hens as they're at least 2 years old and I've heard about eggs breaking inside them after the age of 3. I assume some birds will show symptoms and others not. Is the meat from birds infected with/carrying Mareks viable or do they become useless when utilized as meat birds? I suspect it wouldn't be a problem to consume the birds, avoiding any organs that look off, but I want to ask first. Birds like Winston, who declined rapidly, I doubt I would eat unless it was a survival situation.

Absolutely do not cull your flock. Breeding for resistance really works well, in my experience. Some breeds are more susceptible to Marek's than others but still can be worked with to breed for resistance. I have done a lot of reading on Marek's disease and tried hard for a couple years to get the vaccine to vaccinate my day olds as I hatch them. I was unable to get the vaccine though I tried many sources. Here in NS the only Marek's vaccine available comes frozen in liquid nitrogen and most vets don't provide it. I tried the poultry consultants in Abbotsford and they told me they didn't ship it out of province. After much failed effort to get the vaccine, I started reading more about breeding for resistance. Three summers ago I lost many to Merek's. I didn't have them tested but they had all the symptoms including some with lesions on internal organs. Last summer I only had two come down with the symptoms and culled them immediately. This summer I have not seen any symptoms of Marek's to the point!! So happy. I did get my chicks from Performance Poultry vaccinated this year just because of the poor resistance in the silkies. Nothing I hatched, however, are vaccinated and they are doing fine. I don't plan to bring in any more vaccinated silkies but to take these and work with them over the next few years in hopes of breeding a resistant line. I think it can be done as I have seen the occasional silkie remain healthy even when the majority of the others in the pen had broken down.

I'm sure there are different opinions on whether to eat the culled birds if they show symptoms of the disease. My choice has been to discard any that show symptoms on internal organs and I have since read that that is also the policy in processing plants in NS.

Just another comment - I don't think you'll find much for symptoms in your older birds as Marek's tends to show up in younger birds up to 25 weeks old. If they haven't develop Marek's symptoms by then it is unlikely they will develop it later. I've never had an Isa Brown break down with Marek's even though they lived in the same pens with others who did. I tend to think that Isa Brown's may have a natural resistance.

Sorry about Winston He was such a nice Roo.

I know here if any birds show internal signs of disease the health inspector pulls them and they are not returned for consumption. But again its not something you will know about until you open them up. There are a few different forms and the progression can be very different so your other boys may be perfectly fine.

The way I understand the issue is if only a few become affected they are the weak and should be removed from the breedings. When there are huge losses then breed from any survivors to strengthen immunity in the flock. I dont believe vaccinations will do anyone any favors in the long run.
remember that saying you are what you eat...dont eat sick or diseased foods.

Just curious, and not trying to start a fight - if you'd been a mother of a young child in the early 50s, would you have refused the polio vaccine?

ipf wrote:Just curious, and not trying to start a fight - if you'd been a mother of a young child in the early 50s, would you have refused the polio vaccine?

No fight. In the 50's? Probably would have.

Today? I'm still researching.

You really would have refused the vaccine? Why?
I assume you're aware that the study that linked autism to vaccines was found to have been faked, and the journal article containing the fabricated results was retracted.

ipf wrote:You really would have refused the vaccine? Why?
I assume you're aware that the study that linked autism to vaccines was found to have been faked, and the journal article containing the fabricated results was retracted.

Oi, I meant to say I WOULD have GOTTEN the vaccine in the 50s.

Now I'm still researching for when I have children. I know there are several studies abound and at this point I'm usually very interested in who funded the research, not so much the results, initially.

Interesting.

To go back to the point about Merek's, I don't know that I've ever had a bird who had it and survived. Usually they get the bad eyes or the paralysis and just decline from there, usually quite quickly although sometimes over a few months. Do some actually come back from that?

I had a closed flock and was doing better and better - very little Merek's showing up - but after the foxes wiped out almost all my chickens I've had to start again and want to make sure I am acting with more knowledge this time.

I have been told several times that by the time you see symptoms of anything in a chicken, it's really too late to do too much. They'll either recover or they won't, no matter what you try.

If I think back on it, about 6 months ago now, I kept trying to point out a twisty head action on one of my birds to Moose, but he never saw it or, if he did, he didn't think it out of the ordinary. I still have that bird. It's been a rare occassion, but I've seen her do it since then, only briefly though. It looks like an OCD chicken, double taking about 6 times, and I've only ever seen it at night when she's roosting, so I'm not sure if it's Mareks or not. If it is, she's had it nearly the entire time I've had her.

I'm guessing if my birds have it, there's a high probability the wild bird population does as well?

This is what I'm thinking of:

" If you decide not to vaccinate, you must cull everything that shows signs of Mareks. Survivors are forever carriers and do not add to the resistance of your flock because they did actually succumb to Mareks, you want the ones that don't even succumb to it at all."

I've never had one that showed signs that did recover. Has anyone else?

KlassyChic wrote:Sorry about Winston He was such a nice Roo.

Thanks lovely.

I have had birds recover from Marek's. Often they die of starvation or thirst, rather than the disease (if mild), while they are paralysed. I don't believe that you need to cull a bird with Mareks. If it dies, it's culled itself. If it lives, you've got the start of a resistance program.

If your birds breathe fresh air, they've been exposed to Marek's. It is ubiquitous, and carried in tiny particles. Unless you have a factory farm, or are a VERY long way from the nearest farm with chooks, the virus is around.

There are several strains, and many serotypes within strains. THere is HUGE variability among these varieties; some are highly pathogenic, and some are mild. I believe I'm fortunate enough to have a mild strain here.

It infects (I believe) only chickens, not wild birds.

Turkeys are prone to a mild disease (turkey herpes) that chickens can also catch, but which produces no symptoms in chickens, apart from immunity to Marek's. It is the turkey herpes virus that was the basis for early vaccines for Marek's, but I think they have become more sophisticated recently.

ipf wrote:I have had birds recover from Marek's. Often they die of starvation or thirst, rather than the disease (if mild), while they are paralysed.

Does the paralysis wear off or is it permenant? Too little too late for Winston, I just couldn't bear to see him suffer; the information I had found was that once they were paralyzed there was really no coming back. In your experience, is that not the case? I'll keep this in my memory bank should it happen again.

I had one that was paralyzed but was still bright and alert and would hobble around to eat and drink. I seperated her in a crate and fed her extra vitamins etc wondering if it was something else. I nursed her 6 weeks. She never worsened but never recovered and I decided to euth her. All of her hatchmates had died ( except one who still is going strong)some very fast overnight some for a few days and I euth them. It was quite variable.

ipf wrote:I have had birds recover from Marek's. Often they die of starvation or thirst, rather than the disease (if mild), while they are paralysed. I don't believe that you need to cull a bird with Mareks. If it dies, it's culled itself. If it lives, you've got the start of a resistance program.
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ipf, I am going to disagree with you on this. In my mind if a bird succumbs to the disease, it is not resistant to it, whether it survives or not. If a bird does not actually succumb to something that it is exposed to, then in my mind it is resistant. That may seem like a grey area, but to me if a bird gets it, it is not resistant, period. It also is forever shedding the stuff when it does survive. I agree, this is everywhere and there are so many varieties of it, but I want birds that have the constitution to resist it entirely, not get sick and recover and then expose my youngsters to it continually.

Sweetened, like ifp says it us usually starvation or dehydration that gets the birds in the end. Mareks can show itself in many different ways too. There are the classic paralysis type signs but there are other ways it presents itself too. I had a friend in Australia that bred blue Orpingtons. Her line was very susceptible to Mareks when she got it, but it was not the classic type. Her birds would just waste away. They would eat and drink and look healthy, but they would just turn to a bag of bones and then die. Very frustrating for her. The only real way you saw a bird was suffering from it was to pick them up and feel them. She did get on top of it eventually, but it took some time. She almost gave up a couple of time.

At some stage I did post a very good link here about Mareks. Had good pictures and experiences from others. I can try to find it again if you are interested.