To medicate or not to medicate - why you do or don't

Dark Wing Duck asked me, on another thread, why I choose to avoid medicated feed.

The simple answer is I'm trying to breed for Cocci. resistance and I believe the best course of action to do so is to not provide medicated anything.

The long answer has to do with my mild prepping obsession that has been exacerbating itself in recent months. I need my birds, and other animals, to be prepared for the inability to have veterinary assistance by a professional, to have a natural resistance to things, and the ability to survive in my climate. This is just part of it.

This is why I'm breeding mutts with my own quiet goal of a chatecler-like breed with a few other traits.

What's your reason for or against medicating.

I also do not buy medicated food for my birds. I keep them clean and on dry pasture when they are old enough to go out. Why treat for something that is not a problem? That's how problems start. I also raise them on bedding that is not new. I put a new layer of shavings on top, but they have exposure to the old bedding as well. Gradual introduction to cocci helps them gain immunity to a massive infection. I am sure that's why chicks raised with Mom's are always more robust.

Susan wrote:I also do not buy medicated food for my birds. I keep them clean and on dry pasture when they are old enough to go out. Why treat for something that is not a problem? That's how problems start. I also raise them on bedding that is not new. I put a new layer of shavings on top, but they have exposure to the old bedding as well. Gradual introduction to cocci helps them gain immunity to a massive infection. I am sure that's why chicks raised with Mom's are always more robust.

I'm not sure I understand your rational Susan. Are you saying that you have (or have had) coccidiosis infected birds and in moderation exposure is GOOD for new birds? Why on earth would you want to risk exposing clean birds to that?!?! How do you gauge what is too little, too much or just enough exposure to such a deadly disease?!?!?!
Sorry, but I don't get it!

Cocidiosis is found virtually everywhere chickens are.Cooci are a parasite that attacks the intestinal lining. Exposure to low amounts of the oosysts allow chickens to acquire immunity to an infection in which large large numbers of cocci can infect and replicate in the birds intestines. Am I sure I have cocci here? Yes. I have chickens. am I overly worried about it and feel the need for preventative medication? No.

I guess if you really have trouble understanding Dwd, think of it this way: do you need to live in a bubble, or have you been exposed to regular, normal , endemic human germs as you have "grown up"?

Oh dear, such a subject. All my incubated chicks get medicated starter. Period. Will never change my point of view, which is really nothing much at all. The ONLY and I state ONLY reason I do not give mothers that are raising babies medicated food is because I don't think it is good for the adult bird to consume the medication in medicated chick starter, which is amprolium, in very small doses. Yes, it seems that mother raised chicks are less prone to coccidiosis, but that is generally because the chicks are exposed to small doses of cocci when raised with mamma. Probably is similar to medicated starter. I really don't know. The incubated chicks are generally housed in a place that does not have exposure to the cocci bacteria, usually a pretty clean environment. In my point of view, without exposure to the stuff that chicks which are mamma raised (even mamma feces) get exposed to at an early age, these babies are at risk. Cocciodisis is a very clear and present danger and can wipe many a chick out very quickly, before they can build immunity. And even chicks raised on medicated chick starter can still contract coccidiosis and either die or be very stunted in growth and strength because they survived the dreaded chick disease. I am not professing to know it all, but every chick I raise that is not mamma raised gets medicated chick starter. I will not and cannot take a chance on not helping little babies in this manner. Again, don't know it all, but I stand firm with what I do with my youngsters, be they mamma raised or human mamma raised from an incubator. Good topic, you will hear many responses. This has been talked about many a time and is always good for different thoughts to come through. Have a beautiful day, CynthiaM.

Sweetened wrote:Dark Wing Duck asked me, on another thread, why I choose to avoid medicated feed.

The simple answer is I'm trying to breed for Cocci. resistance and I believe the best course of action to do so is to not provide medicated anything.

The long answer has to do with my mild prepping obsession that has been exacerbating itself in recent months. I need my birds, and other animals, to be prepared for the inability to have veterinary assistance by a professional, to have a natural resistance to things, and the ability to survive in my climate. This is just part of it.

This is why I'm breeding mutts with my own quiet goal of a chatecler-like breed with a few other traits.

What's your reason for or against medicating.

I can appreciate the whole "don't treat for something that isn't not there" thing, but how, or what do you base your breeding program on? How do you determine if you have successfully developed coccidiosis resistant birds?!?!?! Especially with mutt birds that you have acquired and know nothing about the back ground on!
Are going to do the whole lab and petri dish act?

Dark Wing Duck wrote:I'm not sure I understand your rational Susan. Are you saying that you have (or have had) coccidiosis infected birds and in moderation exposure is GOOD for new birds? Why on earth would you want to risk exposing clean birds to that?!?! How do you gauge what is too little, too much or just enough exposure to such a deadly disease?!?!?!
Sorry, but I don't get it!

Coccidiosis is a lot like staph infection in humans in that it is carried by most, if not all chickens their entire lives. It is only when conditions are ripe for population explosion that Cocci. becomes an illness rather than just a carried bug. The same goes for Staph infection in humans.

Quite frankly, young birds exposed as early as possible can start building immunity as early as possible. For example, my Mom did everything she could to expose me to chicken pox at a young age. This included finding out someone's kid had it and sending me to play with children who had been exposed to said child but were not yet showing symptoms (as by the time you see it its not infectious). My Mom did this, not only because she's a somewhat lovingly twisted individual, but because adults who neglected to catch the pox when young can experience severe and dramatic, sometimes life threatening symptoms, versus most children who just end up covered in pink dots of calamine lotion with mittens on.

To me, medicating a newly hatched chick is like giving birth to a baby and starting them on a course of anti-biotics even if the baby is in perfect health. What are you fighting, why are out fighting? Continuing to feed medicated food, to me, is like keeping that child on antibiotics its entire life while keeping them away from any and all other children in order to prevent exposure to a flu bug or cold that may or may not be around. If something happened that that child suddenly HAD to go to the hospital (ie lost a finger, mangled a leg), that child would very likely be dead within days due to no immune system bombardment in life.

Its a personal choice for me, and I'm sure for Susan as well. Just like I won't put myself on meds, I won't put my chickens on it either. My faith in medications is nearly non-existant. I was hospitalized with salmonella poisoning 2 years ago. I won't get into graphic detail but I will say the pain literally crippled me and I thought, for the first time in my life, I was going to die. I was sent home from the hospital 5 hours later with a "stomach cold" and 5 different anti-biotics. The next morning I had a call from one of the doctors at the hospital wanting to know who released me and/or why I left. I had an extremely high count of Salmonella in my blood stream, which is very dangerous and late stage illness. He told me whatever anti-biotics I had been put on, come off them immediately. Drink water, eat if I can, sleep and try not to move unless I have to. Why no anti-biotics? Because salmonella has been fed so many antibiotic treatment, it's immune to over 95% of courses that are ran.

I can't help but feel medicating the animals we eat, as well as eachother, has done nothing but contribute to the epidemic. I sure don't wrong anyone for medicating, however it is strictly not for me.

As for the breeding program, any bird that survives an outbreak has gained resistance. Those that haven't will, and did, die. It is, plainly, that simple. Birds that show morbidity (ie get sick quicker) than others, will also be removed from my breeding program. Those who show little or no symptoms if/when there is an outbreak or conditions are ripe for them will stay.

It doesn't take a microscope to show what nature has perfected with years of natural selection.

I respect that you you have an opinion Dwd, but chill with the ????? And !!!! It's a little intense.

CynthiaM wrote:Oh dear, such a subject. All my incubated chicks get medicated starter. Period. Will never change my point of view, which is really nothing much at all. The ONLY and I state ONLY reason I do not give mothers that are raising babies medicated food is because I don't think it is good for the adult bird to consume the medication in medicated chick starter, which is amprolium, in very small doses. Yes, it seems that mother raised chicks are less prone to coccidiosis, but that is generally because the chicks are exposed to small doses of cocci when raised with mamma. Probably is similar to medicated starter. I really don't know. The incubated chicks are generally housed in a place that does not have exposure to the cocci bacteria, usually a pretty clean environment. In my point of view, without exposure to the stuff that chicks which are mamma raised (even mamma feces) get exposed to at an early age, these babies are at risk. Cocciodisis is a very clear and present danger and can wipe many a chick out very quickly, before they can build immunity. And even chicks raised on medicated chick starter can still contract coccidiosis and either die or be very stunted in growth and strength because they survived the dreaded chick disease. I am not professing to know it all, but every chick I raise that is not mamma raised gets medicated chick starter. I will not and cannot take a chance on not helping little babies in this manner. Again, don't know it all, but I stand firm with what I do with my youngsters, be they mamma raised or human mamma raised from an incubator. Good topic, you will hear many responses. This has been talked about many a time and is always good for different thoughts to come through. Have a beautiful day, CynthiaM.

Hi Cynthia!

I like your reasoning and can see where you're coming from. Thanks for sharing!

Dark Wing Duck wrote:

Sweetened wrote:Dark Wing Duck asked me, on another thread, why I choose to avoid medicated feed.

The simple answer is I'm trying to breed for Cocci. resistance and I believe the best course of action to do so is to not provide medicated anything.

The long answer has to do with my mild prepping obsession that has been exacerbating itself in recent months. I need my birds, and other animals, to be prepared for the inability to have veterinary assistance by a professional, to have a natural resistance to things, and the ability to survive in my climate. This is just part of it.

This is why I'm breeding mutts with my own quiet goal of a chatecler-like breed with a few other traits.

What's your reason for or against medicating.

I can appreciate the whole "don't treat for something that isn't not there" thing, but how, or what do you base your breeding program on? How do you determine if you have successfully developed coccidiosis resistant birds?!?!?! Especially with mutt birds that you have acquired and know nothing about the back ground on!
Are going to do the whole lab and petri dish act?

No petri dish needed. You know when you have achieved results when you don't feed medicated food continuously and they not only don't die, but thrive.

Susan wrote:No petri dish needed. You know when you have achieved results when you don't feed medicated food continuously and they not p my don't die, but thrive.

Agreed. After my chicks were infected, I lost 5, and 3 of them within 1 day of eachother. A break from death for 2 days (resistance building) before losing the final 2 one after the other. There were a few birds that had lost a lot of weight that I was certain wouldn't make it. They recovered and are quickly becoming the biggest birds.

Considering a mortality rate of 50% for medicated chicks can be expected, I think losing 5 of 30 sure wasn't bad.

Susan wrote:I respect that you you have an opinion Dwd, but chill with the ????? And !!!! It's a little intense.

I'm sorry Susan. What is the correct number of !'s and ?'s a person should be allowed to use to express how crazy I think you are!?!?!? LOL!!!! I'm just kidding with you Susan!!!!!!

I'm not trying to say one should or should not feed medicated chick starter. You do what you feel is right! My self, I have tried it both ways without any issues either way. For me however, it's just easier to buy it medicated than it is to drive out of my way to buy the un medicated stuff. And as already mentioned, why take a chance?!?!?!

Sweetened wrote:

Dark Wing Duck wrote:I'm not sure I understand your rational Susan. Are you saying that you have (or have had) coccidiosis infected birds and in moderation exposure is GOOD for new birds? Why on earth would you want to risk exposing clean birds to that?!?! How do you gauge what is too little, too much or just enough exposure to such a deadly disease?!?!?!
Sorry, but I don't get it!

Coccidiosis is a lot like staph infection in humans in that it is carried by most, if not all chickens their entire lives. It is only when conditions are ripe for population explosion that Cocci. becomes an illness rather than just a carried bug. The same goes for Staph infection in humans.

Quite frankly, young birds exposed as early as possible can start building immunity as early as possible. For example, my Mom did everything she could to expose me to chicken pox at a young age. This included finding out someone's kid had it and sending me to play with children who had been exposed to said child but were not yet showing symptoms (as by the time you see it its not infectious). My Mom did this, not only because she's a somewhat lovingly twisted individual, but because adults who neglected to catch the pox when young can experience severe and dramatic, sometimes life threatening symptoms, versus most children who just end up covered in pink dots of calamine lotion with mittens on.

To me, medicating a newly hatched chick is like giving birth to a baby and starting them on a course of anti-biotics even if the baby is in perfect health. What are you fighting, why are out fighting? Continuing to feed medicated food, to me, is like keeping that child on antibiotics its entire life while keeping them away from any and all other children in order to prevent exposure to a flu bug or cold that may or may not be around. If something happened that that child suddenly HAD to go to the hospital (ie lost a finger, mangled a leg), that child would very likely be dead within days due to no immune system bombardment in life.

Its a personal choice for me, and I'm sure for Susan as well. Just like I won't put myself on meds, I won't put my chickens on it either. My faith in medications is nearly non-existant. I was hospitalized with salmonella poisoning 2 years ago. I won't get into graphic detail but I will say the pain literally crippled me and I thought, for the first time in my life, I was going to die. I was sent home from the hospital 5 hours later with a "stomach cold" and 5 different anti-biotics. The next morning I had a call from one of the doctors at the hospital wanting to know who released me and/or why I left. I had an extremely high count of Salmonella in my blood stream, which is very dangerous and late stage illness. He told me whatever anti-biotics I had been put on, come off them immediately. Drink water, eat if I can, sleep and try not to move unless I have to. Why no anti-biotics? Because salmonella has been fed so many antibiotic treatment, it's immune to over 95% of courses that are ran.

I can't help but feel medicating the animals we eat, as well as eachother, has done nothing but contribute to the epidemic. I sure don't wrong anyone for medicating, however it is strictly not for me.

As for the breeding program, any bird that survives an outbreak has gained resistance. Those that haven't will, and did, die. It is, plainly, that simple. Birds that show morbidity (ie get sick quicker) than others, will also be removed from my breeding program. Those who show little or no symptoms if/when there is an outbreak or conditions are ripe for them will stay.

It doesn't take a microscope to show what nature has perfected with years of natural selection.

I have to disagree with you that all chickens carry the Coccidiosis disease! I'm no expert on infectious diseases, but I'm sure that you can't compare this disease to chicken pocks or salmonella!
I'm sure you would have a much better chance and more enjoyable time "raising" not "breeding" poultry for quality than coccidiosis resistance! Besides, keeping your birds in a clean healthy environment will greatly reduce you chances of your birds becoming sick regardless of what the disease is!
Here is a link I found on Coccidiosis.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I tend to think that medicated starter has become a blank cheque to let us off the hook for bad chicken keeping practices.

No, I'm not saying that anyone here is a bad chicken keeper. I don't think medicated starter was invented because the average backyarder was having major losses to cocci. I think it came about because factory farms, which keep birds in death-inducing ways, had to find a way to be crappy chicken keepers and still not have all their chickens die. Medicated starter covers a multitude of sins. It allows us to not improve our housing/keeping practices and still have live birds. Cake and eat it too.

I used to use medicated starter because it was just what everyone did. It's what the hatchery told me to do. So I did. Then one day I forgot to get it and fed my chicks the regular stuff and no one died. But I make sure they are not over heated, not over crowded, have lots of room to circulate into and out of heat and I keep their bedding dry and water dish as clean as I can. No one gets sick and dies.

I don't know that we can breed for resistance. I don't know that medicated starter is always appropriate. But I do know that maybe we don't bite the bullet and make the changes we need to. If we want 100 chicks, but really only have appropriate room for 50, rather than roll back our desires, it's easier to get the 100 we want, and medicate them. See, it's a win/win. We get to carry on without changing our ways and we get live chicks too!

I think sometimes medicated starter makes it look like we're doing a better job than we really are. Maybe the first line of defense in keeping our birds healthy is what we do and the standards we keep. If your chicks routinely die without medicated starter, you need to figure out what the problem is and do what you can to fix it. BUt I repeat that this remains a problem of the factory farm far more than any small scale keepers on this site.

My 2 cents.

On the Island we have different climate then those of you inland. It is VERY damp here, and no matter how often I clean the brooder, or don't clean the brooder, unless I use medicated chick starter on chicks that are in the brooder, I will have deaths from cocci. For me it's pretty simple, I see no ill side effects of using medicated feed, so I do. I bought one bag of non-medicated last year, and lost somewhere along the lines of 20+ chicks of various breeds in one week to cocci. To me, it's not worth the risk. A dead chick will not help improve my resistance or lack thereof to cocci. On the other hand, chicks brooded under a momma seem to benefit immensely from the fresh air and out door exposure and I've not lost a broody raised chick to cocci ever. So, I do what works for me, and having chicks in a brooder barn that is insulated, kept at the correct temperature, very well ventilated, and cleaned regularly, still seems to provide the perfect storm for cocci. Medicated feed for me please!

Dark Wing Duck wrote:I have to disagree with you that all chickens carry the Coccidiosis disease!

Here is a link I found on Coccidiosis.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Directly from your link:

How do birds become infected?

Normally, most birds pass small numbers of oocysts in their droppings without apparent ill effects.

A rebuttle site as well. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The last thing I will say is: being (clearly) oblivious of quality in chickens, the least I could do is give my useless, non-show quality ugly mutts which I have no background on (nor do I truly care) a fighting chance. I educated myself for my decision to not medicate as well as why people do. It's part of what this thread is about. Briarwood mentioned her environment is damp which is why she medicates -- I can see that. Interestingly (or perhaps not), my outbreak happened in a clean coop (surprise) after 2 days of extremely high humidity and storms.

You may prefer to breed for 'quality', though your definition and mine may, perhaps, be different. I can't say I find a lot of quality in a pure-bred, beautiful strain of any animal that becomes sickly at the slightest exposure to an illness/parasite and hasn't been bred for thrivability in as many conditions and against as much as possible. I do, however, find quality in hardy, durable birds who do well by themselves, whatever that means.

Thanks to those who have/will share their reasoning.

I have raised Poultry for longer than I can remember and I will never know everything and I am always learning.

In all the years I have done it I have always used Medicated and when we did not have it I used CO-Rid in the water.
Cocci is always present in a animals feces and also in Humans it is what causes a enteritis of the bowel.
Some poultry is very strong on the immunity that they have some are not
Incubator hatched Poultry does not have that Natural immunity that a natural hatched chick does for some reason do we know why no we dont will we ever know I doubt it.
I will always feed Medicated that is my choice as I have seen what Cocci can do to a whole hatch and dont want to see it ever again
if a person dont that is their choice
and no matter what they will stick to their guns on it
But how many non medicated feed people have asked the question
What is wrong with my chicks they are dying
Something to think about

appway wrote:
But how many non medicated feed people have asked the question
What is wrong with my chicks they are dying
Something to think about

This really hits home with me too. Like Appway, I will always choose medicated starter. Ive been raising chicks for a couple of decades now, and until this year I had never seen a case of Cocci in my chicks. But due to a number of factors, I had to deal with it this year. It was the end of my hatching season so a number of batches of chicks had gone through my brooder, damp weather, and feed that was mis-labeled so was not medicated when I thought I had been feeding medicated. So of course I had sick chicks. Which made me feel sick that I had let this happen. Only lost 1, but I treated as soon as I realized what was going on.

What made me feel even worse was the time I hatched out a beautiful batch of healthy cochins. Someone came to buy them as 3 week old started chicks, and they wanted good ones. So we picked them over, chose only those with the nicest features, best toe feathering, those that were looking like females...
Well 2 weeks later I find out they had mostly all died of cocci. The buyer didn't like the idea of using medicated feed.
I felt the loss as much as if they were still my own.
In my oppinion, there are far too many illnesses and diseases out there to deal with already.
Cocci is one that attacks babies before they have a chance to build up immunity and become resistant. It is preventable in an easy and inexpensive method - no vaccine or needles required...
I would never choose not to.

I constantly think of my chicks and why they are dying. The first one was a surprise, unexpected, however I instantly started looking for clues, making observations and supplementing with gut-flora enhancing things. The first 3 declined so rapidly, I was at work when they passed and was unable to stop their suffering myself. The last 2 I put down myself. Was it easy? No. Nature isn’t easy. In my opinion, these chicks wouldn’t have survived in ‘the wild’, and thus weren’t healthy enough from birth. It’s a bit fatalistic, but let it be known I cried for each one.

Those that declined but returned are thriving, without a doubt. I made a lot of considerations and changes in how I do things, including less of a quarantine type environment between brooder and coop. It’s unfortunate that those of us who use non-medicated are viewed as not caring about our birds. For most of us, it’s the exact opposite. I must say, as well, there is time and effort required to specifically seek out non-medicated food. For those who feel as though we are being lazy or taking an easy way out, I believe you are sadly mistaken.

After I posted that, I wanted to add that I do understand what you are working towards Sweetened, and I admire it. Breeding up your own brand of strong, hardy no-nonsense chickens is a valuable, meaningful goal. Chickens like that will always be needed. Those are some of the characteristics I look for in my Chanteclers.
My goal with the Cochins is pretty much at the other end of the spectrum. They are slow growing so not particularly useful for meat. Not great foragers and all those feathers mean they can suffer from external parasites if not cared for properly. They can't fly to escape predators. In short, they are mainly meant to be beautiful, ornamental birds, and need human intervention/protection to survive. They are my pets more than livestock. So, like vaccinating my dogs, I'll keep using the medicated chick starter.

Grr... Had written a huge spiel and lost it! Long story short... I use unmediated in spring and medicated during the heat and humidity of summer. I hate loosing chicks to something I can prevent. I have to drive 2 hours to get medicated. I Slowly lost 80% of a hatch to cocci and the survivors still look like crap. I won't do that again.

I just want to add that I would never think less of anyone for doing things differently than myself - or mainstream opinion for that matter. Different ideas and methods are what make the world better. I think most of the visionaries and great minds of the modern world were considered crazy, or worse, by their peers. You may be right in your opinion, you may be wrong....but at least you have a thought process to go with it. That's admirable.

Hi Bowker;

I understand what you mean. I was lucky with my losses being cut short and I know that. I’m not sure if it’ll help, but for your remaining birds, maybe some plain yogurt with little aloe vera juice mixed in? That’s what pulled my birds through. Either way, I don’t think it would harm and would help increase good gut flora, maybe help them look a little perkier? Just a suggestion, leave or take matters no mind.

Kathy, I don’t think there’s really anything to admire about what I’m doing. I’m doing it out of a prepping obsession more than anything else, and for the occasional beautiful bird that may or may not pop up in the mix. I think it’ll be fun, as well. Slow process, but fun no less. I mean no ill towards breeds that need special attention, however I know they’re not for me and would not take pleasure in growing something I could lose so easily due to a missed day of this or a wrong temperature that. THAT takes patience, patience I do not have. A great saying is “Adopt the pace of nature: her secret is patience.” You I admire. You and your puppy dogs!”

I do feed medicated starter. But this spring I had a white Chantecler hen go broody so I used unmedicated feed in her pen. I was surprised when she consistently swept away all foods I provided, not allowing the chicks to eat much of it. She would search though the old deep litter for her choice of materials, sweep it into the waterer and direct them to eat that when it was ready. Everyday I would clean and freshen the water and every day she repeated the process. They got a bit runny for a few days like the chicks on medicated do after they are challenged but seem perfectly fine now..oh, aside, the chantecler chicks had access to fine ground whole corn and their leg color is brilliant yellow, all the others I raise on starter don't get nearly as bright leg color.

I believe medicine and antibiotics are here for a reason. Like anything, they can misused and overused. I try to use them to aid my birds and to help cure them when they are ill.

I used to use un-medicated chick started but changed to medicated and noticed a huge difference in the growth of my chicks. They grew larger and faster on medicated and I had fewer losses. My decision to change to medicated was to help give my birds a better start and not because of disease. I don't regret doing it and would not return to non medicated.

This year was the first time I had my Houdan chicks that came from a hatchery vaccinated for Merecks. Despite well meaning people commenting that I had done a dis-service to my chicks, I do not regret vaccinating them. Comparing numbers, I have lost fewer Houdans and the chicks are more robust. When I breed these chicks as adults, those F1's will not be vaccinated and I will compare results accordingly.

I have been a bird fancier for over 30 years. Even with caged birds, death is something I've had to deal with and come to terms with. Often when you notice a bird is sick, it is already too far gone for anything to be done. Even after this many years, it still bothers me when an otherwise healthy looking chick, thriving in the morning can be dead by evening's end. I have learned that there are somethings you can't change.

Back in the day, I wished that medicines were available to help me help my birds. 30 years later, I am grateful that I can get medicine and antibiotics that if I use them correctly can help aid my chicks & birds in keeping them healthy. I don't apoligize for using them as it is my choice.