Agricultural Land rant.

Local paper has an article about a proposed subdivision and surprise, surprise, the vocal opposition. This is such an old song and it seriously picks me!

The nay-sayers are clinging to the righteous, time honoured stand-by of bemoaning the fact that the subdivision will take place on viable farmland. Holy and protected farm land. Sacred and scarce farm land. Oh, shut up with that already!

First, all the people who do not want new development and new homes and more traffic had better ALL be people who had NO CHILDREN because if you have added to the global population, then you are the number one reason we need more houses and more traffic. So if you have given birth, you don't have a leg to stand on when people want to build houses and live in them. YOur children will want the same one day. SO people with kids who complain about development have neatly removed themselves from the discussion. Buh bye.

Second..what exactly does one mean when they whine about losing viable farmland? What does 'viable' mean, anyway? Does viable mean "able to produce enough income to sustain itself and the family who owns it'? Hell no! That doesn't happen around here. In fact if you own farmland most likely you and your partner work off farm to pay the bills and afford your lifestyle. UNless you are blessed with quota or are growing dope, you CANNOT and WILL NOT make a sustainable living on your farm. Viable, schmiable. This is smoke being blown up your butt!

Let's follow one of the naysayers, the lovers of farm land, lets' follow him/her through the grocery store. Ah, she puts meat in her basket, from New Zealand. Passes by the local orchardist's apples in favour of oranges from California. Grabs those pale, ethically bankrupt eggs for $2.29 a dozen instead of pay her neighbour $3 for her fresh farmgate produce. There is a REASON farmers are going hungry and it is US. YOU AND ME. People who do not know the artificially depressed price of food in this country. If we paid the real price of food none of us would have cell phones, quads, or toys of any sort. We'd have a home and food and little else. But we all want the toys and goodies and the luxuries of life and we snivel over the least rise in food prices, don't want to pay a little more for a local product, but cry like babies when some farmer gets sick and tired of being sick and tired and wants to divide his land.

I am bored with all the Not In My Back Yarders. It is a short sighted, knee jerk reaction that I find most often serves self interest and NOT the greater good. We all want someone else to divide somehwere else so our kids can move there, but heaven forbid should it ever be our turn to tolerate the advance of the humanity we helped create.

We want cheap food and our cheapness is what makes our farmers poor. I know that like myself many, many of you DO pay more for local produce because your ethics and morals dictate that you should. I keep my business local and am an extreme proponent of that, NOT going out of town to a big box store to save 70 cents on my bag of dog food.

When I read of some farmer wanting to divide and sell I think he must be at the end of his rope, watching his friends and neighbour leave town for bulk, CHEAP groceries or buying foreign products. And I don't blame him. I cannot take anyone serioulsy who cries over lost farmland when they cheap out on their food dollar. And most of us do. Be honest. We need a MASSIVE shift in values and actions before anyone will take this weeping over farm land seriously.

I want to show up at some of these meetings and as Miss Politically Correct Yuppie howls that there will be more traffic on her road if there is a subdivision, I want to stand up and remind her that once upon a time HER place was farmland and that SHE is the most recent traffic on a formerly quiet, country road so SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE! It's great for a nice little acreage when WE want somewhere to live but we don't want anyone else to have the same. Not them, just us. I think in kindergarten you got sent to the corner for this sort of greedy conduct.

I say break that land into 5 acre chunks and see if someone can't grow a garden, a beef and some hens to meet a few of their food needs. Until this whole country wakes up and smells the manure....there is not much hope for small scale farming to make a living for anyone.

I hope you cc'd the editor of the paper on this one Uno. You have once again put down some real truths here.

As always, Uno, you have some interesting points. I hate to see agricultural land being taken out of production, but the days of making a living on the farm exists only for those that operate a factory farm or grow a crop that the rest of us subsidize by paying for their electrical energy and taxes.

A bit more than a decade ago in the Kamloops area there was a big to do over a large ranch west of Kamloops that someone wanted to turn into a colony of the well heeled- golf course, horse training. There was a huge protest. Even Ian Tyson came to help with the protest. To be honest the land in question was in the ALR, but was actually semi-desert land not really suitable for anything but a single cow wandering around 20 or more acres. Eventually it was approved, expensive houses were built, a golf course was made, and a horse facility built. The whole developement is now in the hands of a receiver as not enough people could be found that wished that lifestyle or could afford that lifestyle.

Six years ago a particle of land east of Kamloops that was good, irrigated agricultural land quietly was sold and developed with hardly a whimper. There possibly wasn't much said because this ranch had been surrounded with city for a long time.

There is something wrong about how we in Canada finance farm land. Most aspiring farmer cannot afford to pay huge mortgages with so many bales of hay or as in a few years ago with a worthless cow that we were praying some unsuspecting person would buy. A lot of farmland would stay farmland if somebody could afford to buy it as farmland. In France the government has declared some land as parkland whose only allowable use is farming.

Back when the ALR was created, it was done by idiots. This was perhaps one of the greatest travesties perpetuated upon the BC public, ever. It would be hard to find such blatant disregard for reality and practical truth anywhere.

Without actual consideration of the topography or geographical diversities of this province, some boob literally took a straight edged ruler and drew utterly, and grossly arbitrary lines through this province creating ALR.

Had the ALR actually been a title bestowed on honest to goodness farm land, it might not be the standing joke it now is. But it is am embarrassment and mockery. It has been used in ways it never was intened, in many cases, for NIMBYs to picket against develpment as if they care a fig for farmers. They do not. THey care for making sure that since they have their slice of real estae, no one else gets anymore. It is the very worst of human nature.

There are certain instances where development should not happen, but the predictable whining of Save OUr ALR is as old as the hills...and there is nothng being raised on those hills!

The govt policies in this country are stacked against the small farmer. He has been gutted and ruined not by the demise of farm land, but by all the moronic decisions made by suits...who have never milked a cow or mucked a barn in their life. Pandering to the cries of the ignorant populace in cities, farmers have been pushed to the margins. ANd now when all a farmer has left is to subdivide his margin, he has some crusader with a placard chanting "Save Our Farmland". We ought to march to said crusader's home and look in their fridge.

If your freedom in this country is to NOT buy local produce, then the farmer should be free to NOT raise local produce. If you want someone to keep your farm land as a holy birthright, then NO ONE should be able to buy anything except what can be grown on said farm land. NO citrus all winter? That's the price you pay to make farmer's viable. Eat an apple or potatoe and shut up. This knife cuts both ways. Except you will hear loudest from those who most want their own way and only their own way.

Hold on a second here. While many points are valid, the tone is not becoming of a country-loving soul...tsk,tsk.

The price of farmland, and the price of farming are becoming more and more out of reach for "farmers". But, the ALR was an ingenious idea and I would NEVER want anything different for BC.
One may need the unfortunarte opportunity of living somewhere where there are very distinct borders between city and country to appreciate this. The city dwellers where I live forget that there even is a country because they never see evidence in daily life. In these situations there literarally is no real greenspace for miles, because the provicial gov sees no financial benefit to setting aside land for ALR and nature parks etc.

On the otherhand, BC puts way more enphasis into nature parks and such inside cities.

Who do I pitty where I live? The children. I think back to the days when I was growing up in Kelowna. Would walk to the "duck pond" and catch turtles. Would walk with my grandparents along Mission Creek Park and pick shaggymain mushrooms in the fall. I would skip highschool in the spring just to walk along the small side roads through the blossiming orchards. Pure heaven. To take those things away from the city people would meen that I may not have learned to desire a 'country life'.

When my DH and I lived in a subdivision outside of Grande Prairie Ab, before moving to the farm, my kids could ride their bikes around a cul-de-sac that cirled a small playground with 2 trees. Our house was on the road that circled the park. That was all they could do. There was nothing else.No patch of bush to hide in and make forts. No creek to catch frogs from. Nothing.
If, by chance, we were to go strawberry picking, we have to drive over 100kms to the closest one. There are no commercial gardens or anything of the sort anywhere near town. Just wheat fields.

To have pumpkin patches, fruit tree orchards, wineries, u-picks, fruit/veggie stands, corn fields, horse barns etc in town where the kids can see them and dream if they want to, that is the most priceless thing. Once it is gone, it is forever gone along with all the potential that was there.

So many people cannot aford to live outside of a city, or maybe a few would if only they had more opportunities to realize how wonderful countrey living can be.

In Kelowna, I lived on McCurdy Rd, in Rutland. I could walk down to The BoardWalk (rollerskaTING), The Flinstones, WetNWild Waterslides, they were all on that road. Whats there now? Frigging Cineplex and The Brick. What are the kids in Rutland supposed to do for fun now????

Money. Thats what it is about.
I don't really care who has the land, and how productively the land is used in the mean-time. It must stay ALR. Do not allow good farmland to be replaced by such stupid, senceless things as subdivisions and Walmarts. They should be put in areas that are suited to little else.

How ridiculous that I needed to say any of this, and to fight for such a basic basic fundamental need.

Good Grief!

KatuskiFarms wrote:Hold on a second here. While many points are valid, the tone is not becoming of a country-loving soul...tsk,tsk.

The price of farmland, and the price of farming are becoming more and more out of reach for "farmers". But, the ALR was an ingenious idea and I would NEVER want anything different for BC.
One may need the unfortunarte opportunity of living somewhere where there are very distinct borders between city and country to appreciate this. The city dwellers where I live forget that there even is a country because they never see evidence in daily life. In these situations there literarally is no real greenspace for miles, because the provicial gov sees no financial benefit to setting aside land for ALR and nature parks etc.

On the otherhand, BC puts way more enphasis into nature parks and such inside cities.

Who do I pitty where I live? The children. I think back to the days when I was growing up in Kelowna. Would walk to the "duck pond" and catch turtles. Would walk with my grandparents along Mission Creek Park and pick shaggymain mushrooms in the fall. I would skip highschool in the spring just to walk along the small side roads through the blossiming orchards. Pure heaven. To take those things away from the city people would meen that I may not have learned to desire a 'country life'.

When my DH and I lived in a subdivision outside of Grande Prairie Ab, before moving to the farm, my kids could ride their bikes around a cul-de-sac that cirled a small playground with 2 trees. Our house was on the road that circled the park. That was all they could do. There was nothing else.No patch of bush to hide in and make forts. No creek to catch frogs from. Nothing.
If, by chance, we were to go strawberry picking, we have to drive over 100kms to the closest one. There are no commercial gardens or anything of the sort anywhere near town. Just wheat fields.

To have pumpkin patches, fruit tree orchards, wineries, u-picks, fruit/veggie stands, corn fields, horse barns etc in town where the kids can see them and dream if they want to, that is the most priceless thing. Once it is gone, it is forever gone along with all the potential that was there.

So many people cannot aford to live outside of a city, or maybe a few would if only they had more opportunities to realize how wonderful countrey living can be.

In Kelowna, I lived on McCurdy Rd, in Rutland. I could walk down to The BoardWalk (rollerskaTING), The Flinstones, WetNWild Waterslides, they were all on that road. Whats there now? Frigging Cineplex and The Brick. What are the kids in Rutland supposed to do for fun now????

Money. Thats what it is about.
I don't really care who has the land, and how productively the land is used in the mean-time. It must stay ALR. Do not allow good farmland to be replaced by such stupid, senceless things as subdivisions and Walmarts. They should be put in areas that are suited to little else.

How ridiculous that I needed to say any of this, and to fight for such a basic basic fundamental need.

Good Grief!

..........I agree !!

Problem is that we are spoiled with an abundance of good land. I always marvel at documentaries in places like some regions of China. Not much good farmland so everything that IS good is in production. They build their houses on stilts on steep slopes that they can't do anything else with.

I don't think the argument is so much that ALR is a ridiculous invention created as a mask to make the government look like it gives a damn about the average, small time farmer; I think the statement implied that's what it turned out to be. As someone who has lived around North America (Canadian born and bred, mind you), I can tell you I whole heartedly agree that the ALR had great points, but as Uno stated, someone slapped a badly drawn etch-a-sketch line through the province and said "TADA!"

I spent the first 14 years of my life in the lower mainland (Chilliwack and Abbotsford, to be exact) and did an 8 year stint in the US when my mother left an abusive relationship and married an American (Georgia, Wisconsin, Florida). I can most definitely say when I returned to Canada, when I returned home to Abbotsford, I found the 'black path' I used to walk to reach John Maclure Elementary had, indeed, gone black. Not only was the tar-top walkway as barren as it ever was, no life remained on either side of it and there was no grass to be seen outside of Cascade Not-So-Green. Oreol park, marred by the Abbotsford Killer, is a mere remnant of what it used to be and the only source of green life that reminds me of my Childhood catching frogs and tadpoles (putting them in jars with a stick and a leaf because that had to feel like home) are oil-slicked water surfaces with river trout I wouldn't eat unless it was the last critter left on Earth.

It's called 'Progress', what it is is overpopulation and we all know it. I long debated on whether or not to contribute to the now 6+ billion of us that are on Earth and decided, when I do, I'll teach them differently; maybe everybody says that, but a new breed of people need to start up, and those are people who give a flip about what the world has going on and where their food comes from. It's about knowing who grows your food, not who 'made' it.

However, the problem I have with Uno's rant is the seeming lack of viability for the small time farmer. It's that mind set, its that financial detriment to the farmer that pulls people out of farming. I GET IT, it's not an easy living, there is no cut from Monsanto, there are long, 14+ hour days out in the blistering cold spent fixing things, saving a life, breaking up barnyard scraps, butchering and culling your weak, your sick and your dying.

The problem is, people go to the money, farmers or not. I was listening to the old bitties at the local diner here, overheard them talking about how over 20 large families used to own and farm all the land out this way -- for miles no less; now, 3 families remain. They said "no body is coming out here to start farms anymore."

Here's a question: How? I'm (hopefully) buying a 15acre parcel. 15 acres of the owner's quarter section. He's only selling off the parcel because of the location of the house that he doesn't want to see going to waste -- quite frankly, it would inconvenience him to farm around it. This is one of 9 full sections of land he owns and farms with possible GE crops (if they aren't, they're next door to ones that are). Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, I like his family, I appreciate what he is doing for us, however I understand his farming is financially driven. If I asked to buy the quarter section that house sits on, he'd tell me no, he uses that land.

On that quarter section, I could be completely self sufficient, beyond the scope of caring for me and my family. I could hunt the land without question, raise meat in larger quantities, cycle pastures more effectively, could supply local food to the 5-8 communities that surround this one.

Instead, my nearest farmer's market is in Regina, 50 minutes away from where I live. Sure I work there, but the day I can attend the 2 day-a-week market is a Saturday, a day I'm not in town, defeating the 'local' nature of going. The prices there aren't a 1 or 2 dollar difference, they're 4 or 5 dollar difference. Market farmers are out pricing themselves around here.

Lets be realistic. The easiest example is Radishes. I can go to stupid-store and buy a bunch of radishes that have been sitting on a shelf/in a freezer/on a truck. In reality, the 97 cents I pay for a bundle of 10 radishes probably doesn't even cover the cost of getting them from the farm to market when you take in absolutely ever piece of what goes into it, NOT TO MENTION the damage to the environment and local community. I'm thinking of growing them this year. If I grow them, I pay 2.97 for organic seeds (from west coast seeds). According to the documentation provided, there are 1060 seeds per gram, 75% of which should be viable, so that's 795 seeds or 795 radishes -- that's .5 cents or so PER radish if I grow intensively without thinning; that's 5 cents for 10. Even if I generously factor in $9.00 (because that's what your prickers are paid) an hour, a half hour a day for the 25 day growing cycle for your radishes, and then ad... I dunno, $20 for gas, you're still looking at only 16 cents per radish or 1.60 for a bundle of 10. Last summer, it was $5 for 10 radishes. 5 BUCKS. Factor in my cost of driving to and from the city to have a zero mile (or 100km) diet, buying all of my supplemented veggies at the steep mark-up, my one hundred dollar (likely) purchase which will mould within a week and a half if I can't get it stored will be around 125 dollars for what a grocer would ask 50, maybe 65.

THAT's why people buy from Stupid Store. THATs why small farmers are being pushed out. THAT's why I hear "the farmers market is soooo expensive." It's not about the guy on Used Regina selling a dozen farm fresh eggs out of his back yard for $3 a dozen, it's about the guy next door doing the same dame thing for $5 dollars a dozen and slapping "ALL NATURAL" before 'farm fresh.' It's about -that- part of this wonderful community that doesn't (probably) join these forums, that doesn't doesn't care as much, they're in it for the MONEY, not the life, not sustaining their farms comfortably, it's about the toys as Uno said.

And don't even get me started on the issue of buying local meat from your local farmer's doorstep and the fact that you (legally) can't. Or the raw milk issue, same damn thing.

uno wrote:Back when the ALR was created, it was done by idiots. This was perhaps one of the greatest travesties perpetuated upon the BC public, ever. It would be hard to find such blatant disregard for reality and practical truth anywhere.

Without actual consideration of the topography or geographical diversities of this province, some boob literally took a straight edged ruler and drew utterly, and grossly arbitrary lines through this province creating ALR.

Had the ALR actually been a title bestowed on honest to goodness farm land, it might not be the standing joke it now is. But it is am embarrassment and mockery. It has been used in ways it never was intened, in many cases, for NIMBYs to picket against develpment as if they care a fig for farmers. They do not. THey care for making sure that since they have their slice of real estae, no one else gets anymore. It is the very worst of human nature.

There are certain instances where development should not happen, but the predictable whining of Save OUr ALR is as old as the hills...and there is nothng being raised on those hills!

The govt policies in this country are stacked against the small farmer. He has been gutted and ruined not by the demise of farm land, but by all the moronic decisions made by suits...who have never milked a cow or mucked a barn in their life. Pandering to the cries of the ignorant populace in cities, farmers have been pushed to the margins. ANd now when all a farmer has left is to subdivide his margin, he has some crusader with a placard chanting "Save Our Farmland". We ought to march to said crusader's home and look in their fridge.

If your freedom in this country is to NOT buy local produce, then the farmer should be free to NOT raise local produce. If you want someone to keep your farm land as a holy birthright, then NO ONE should be able to buy anything except what can be grown on said farm land. NO citrus all winter? That's the price you pay to make farmer's viable. Eat an apple or potatoe and shut up. This knife cuts both ways. Except you will hear loudest from those who most want their own way and only their own way.

Love the rant Uno! We're seeing some of this in action in our town. 5 acres, 2 blocks from downtown. Agrologists have basically said it can't grow much but... it's in the "sacred ALR" and the owner would like to subdivide but can't get it out. Goes against everything common sense issue (i.e. location to town core, suitability or lack thereof for ag purposes, etc.) but what can you do. Personally, if I was them, I'd store tonnes of manure and have large stinky chicken barns with big fans directed towards downtown but, as you said, who could afford to farm these days.

Well I have little sympathy with landowners who knowingly bought ALR and are now shocked that it is still zoned ALR and cannot cash in for mega $$$. Too damn bad.

Realize that the more ALR disappears, the bigger the disconnect between farm fresh products and the consumer. BC residents are very aware of locally produced foods. That is why there are so many veggie stands, and agri-tourism farms. This is NOT the case in other provinces. Largely in part because it is too hard to access for city folk (too far away), and because it is "out of sight, out of mind".
Let's say I have a successful market garden. I live 30 Km's out of town. So, a veggie stand would not do so well on my place, would need to go to town and rent a spot etc. farmers market is high priced just to exhibit there. ALR allows for the garden and the veggie stand to be right there, city folks can walk/ bike to and from. For such an old idea, this is exactly what every bigger center wishes they had in their infrastructure now. What bragging rights this offers environmentally.

Interesting topic.
I personally think the ALR is irrelevant anyways. The way land prices are now there is no way farm land is viable unless you are a corporate entity buying tons of it, or have inherited it from family.
We would run our own farm, but working in the industry means we are paid a miniscule amount and could never, ever afford to buy our own. Neither of our families have land, so no hope there either. Every place we work get treated like it is ours. Care and attention and loooonnnng hours that ranching entails. It is frustrating as we will never get our own because we do not have the income to ever be able to afford the prices that land is now. Especially if it is run as an entity itself with no other income from town. So we bust our balls for someone else, care for it is like our own, and watch other beautiful farms and ranches get split up because there is more money in the land than in what can be produced off of it. Very sad.

Fowler touched on a really good point imo.

It’s not always about how much land a person owns, rather what a person chooses to do with the space they have available…
For example, here’s an ‘urban farming’ family that manage to grow everything they need (as well as surplus to sell) on only 1/10 of an acre while living in the heart of suburbia. Granted they are in California…

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I believe change to self-sufficiency IS possible for the average Joe - just not while maintaining our society’s current status quo of $$greed$$ is good, more is better.

Coopslave nailed it. Unless you INHERIT farm land here in BC, (in this area of BC) nothing produced on that land will ever make a mortgage payment.

Katsuki....kids are different from when you and I grew up, and you are much younger than I am! The average kid nowadays doesn't get their face out of the house where all their electronic gadgets are plugged in. They have no desire to walk in the woods and look for frogs. Urban kids are all about pants that fall off their butts, skateboard parks and FaceBook. The people on this site may raise their kids with different values but the vast majority of urban children do not give a fig about what's living in the local ditches. WHat they are missing out on is better parenting, not green space.

Here, where that wonderful farm land and urban boundaries meet do you know what happens? Is it a wonderful dance around the maypole to celebrate the farming we can view from the kitchen window? No! IT's a big complain fest because farming is noisy! Farming is stinky! Farming makes dust! Farmers drive equipment that make exhaust! SOmetimes we see the farmer kill things! SOmetimes we see dead things! Agh, agh, agh, our tender urban sensitivities are offended...make the farmer STOP farming because it bugs us! THAT is what happens here. Not gratitude for food production. Nope. Those people do not give a fig where their food comes from as long and Mr. Farmer quits doing what he's doing.

Sweetend (I think it was you) said that farmer's markets price themselves out of buyers. Well, why shouldnlt they? I think their prices reflect the real cost PLUS a mark up. WHy should any person, farmer or otherwise, work for less than a fair wage? HOw many of us would drive to the office and say to our boss, you know...I think I could take a $5 an hour paycut, just to help your business be more competitive. Does that happen? Nope. So why should any farmer, who labours WAY LONGER than any office worker, sell his produce at lower prices? THis goes back to our public being grossly spoiled artificially low food prices. IT's true. For $2 you can buy a whack of seed to feed yourself. BUt should you invest the time and effort and land investment to feed strangers for the same price? Nope. Nice sentiment, but it just leaves farmers underpaid for their work and produce.

I think another thing that is not being made clear in this discussion is the difference in land prices. Where I live in BC, it's obscene. Local people can no longer afford to live here! I own 2.5 acres that is bedrock and a dreadful slope and it goes for.... $65,000 an acre. How many radishes do you need to grow to pay off land at $65,000 an acre? SO to preserve farm land as farm land we all better be willing to pay $5 for a bunch of radishes or pound of taters, otherwise, step aside and let that farmer subdivie...as farm land it is a burden and liability, NOT a benefit to him or the public who does not want to pay the real cost of food. (there is no building on that land, add a house and that price goes up!)

Katsuki, not to tell you what you are thinking, but I get the feeling what you miss is the biodiversity of this part of BC compared to where you live now. Very different geographies, each with their own strengths. But if all you see when you look out is miles and miles of wheat fields, then you are indeed looking out at miles and miles of productive farm land that IS producing a crop. Here the land pieces are too small, the cost too high and the returns non-existant. I am not against farmers or making aliving on farm land, I just haven't met one yet that didn't hold quota or grow marijuana.

"making a living" on farmland is not the topic in question. That is rarer than rare, equal to winning the 649 . The topic is whether or not ALR should be preserved as such, and yes, it must. Maybe legislation should be changed, as survivor mentioned earlier. How agri-based land is categorized along (equally?) to commercial makes it impossible to purchase. Yes. But, once it is taken away and cemented over it is gone forever. Legislation can be changed, even if a long shot. Land owners need to work off the farm to keep it. Never once have I actually thought we would be able to earn enough to not need to work elsewhere.
Farmable land is precious.
Do I miss the biodiversity of BC? Yes, who wouldn't? But, I wish that where I live now had the foresight to plan the centers in the same fashion as BC, including ALR.

Maybe there would still be kids catching frogs and building forts if they could. If they could find a place to do it at.

I don't disagree that farm land is valuable. But this is about land that isn't farm land. Never was, never will be. I think many Albertan and Saskatchewan farmers would fall down laughing if they saw much of what is deemed agricultural land here.

This post was prompted by whiners who don't want the neighbouring rock pile, which is stupidly and wrongly deemed ALR, to be subdivided. It has ZERO value as farm land (the majority of it anyway) but they don't actually give a hoot about farming or local food crops. It's just an auto excuse to halt development. The default whine allowed by governmental stupidity and monsterous bungling. It's simply and purely a case of, "I have MY slice of rural acreage and now I will prevent YOU from having your slice!" The greed is not the developer...the greed is people who think they get to live in unchanging circumstances. People seem to forget very quickly that they are living in a subdivision...take your head out of your ALR and live and let live. If you get to move onto subdivided farm land, so does someone else. PERIOD.

Katsuki...farm land, around here anyway, is private. Local residents should not view it as park land. The absence of park land is not fixed by using other's private lands as if they were parks. Lack of green space is an oversite of city planners. It is not the responsibility of rural land owners to leave their land in its natural state for the enjoyment of local residents. More often than not these days you are greeted by barbed wire fences and No Trespassing signs. Around here loss of trail access is a HUGE issue as private land owners LOCK OUT those who would like to recreate on their property. Reason? Law suits. (that is a whole other topic!)So, farm land surrounding a town cannot and should not be relied upon as park land, unless the city wants to buy it and deem it as such. Here, at 60 or 70,000 an acre I bet many farmers would be more than happy to do just that!

While many of us are on this site because farming and land and animals matter to us, there are many more Canadians who are NOT on this site. Rural Canada is losing numbers in droves! Look at a census. So it's great to say we must preserve our farmland...but for whom? Do you want to sign up to be an indentured servant to your incredibly expensive land that will never pay its way? DO you want to sign a 99 year lease and have your hands tied by the land you are stuck on? Just pay and pay and pay with no hope of ever owning? No...we have abolished slavery. We can preserve all the land we want, but we cannot force people into a lifestyle they don't want. While some of us here might jump at the chance, we are a tiny, tiny minority. Fewer and fewer of us want to work our guts out to keep a property that will never support us. It's like being in debt forever then leaving that debt for your children. You can set aside land but you cannot force people to be dirt poor farmers. SO..who gets that land? The only ones who can afford it...agri-business.

Maybe breaking 40 acres into 8, 5 acres chunks will actually see more milk cows, more gardens and more chickens than are currenlty on it. Maybe if those 5 acres can provide some garden produce and eggs and meat for 8 families, it is being more productive than what it's doing right now, just sitting, growing rocks.

No one is suggesting dividing a functioning dairy or 200,000 bird poultry barn. This proposal is for land that should never have been in the ALR in the first place.

Jeeeze. I just typed onto my phone for ten mi utes, only for it to just kick out, and lose all my work.! Must have typed too much and phone said "All right already, enough!"[quote]

YOu can post here from your phone? YOur posts are written as text messages! Oh my lord. I am so out of the techno loop.

uno wrote:

Sweetend (I think it was you) said that farmer's markets price themselves out of buyers. Well, why shouldnlt they? I think their prices reflect the real cost PLUS a mark up. WHy should any person, farmer or otherwise, work for less than a fair wage? HOw many of us would drive to the office and say to our boss, you know...I think I could take a $5 an hour paycut, just to help your business be more competitive. Does that happen? Nope. So why should any farmer, who labours WAY LONGER than any office worker, sell his produce at lower prices? THis goes back to our public being grossly spoiled artificially low food prices. IT's true. For $2 you can buy a whack of seed to feed yourself. BUt should you invest the time and effort and land investment to feed strangers for the same price? Nope. Nice sentiment, but it just leaves farmers underpaid for their work and produce.

I think another thing that is not being made clear in this discussion is the difference in land prices. Where I live in BC, it's obscene. Local people can no longer afford to live here! I own 2.5 acres that is bedrock and a dreadful slope and it goes for.... $65,000 an acre. How many radishes do you need to grow to pay off land at $65,000 an acre? SO to preserve farm land as farm land we all better be willing to pay $5 for a bunch of radishes or pound of taters, otherwise, step aside and let that farmer subdivie...as farm land it is a burden and liability, NOT a benefit to him or the public who does not want to pay the real cost of food. (there is no building on that land, add a house and that price goes up!)

Part of the reason I move from BC is the rediculous prices of land/homes etc. so that, I understand.

Concerning the market prices and getting paid what people deserve, lets think about it this way: how many people, farmers or otherwise, who work hard, long hours (or maybe hard, short hours) get paid what they deserve? DH's office had 5 people when he started -- now, there's 2 and the other 3 people's jobs have been piled on him without any compensation, consideration or respect from his employer. I suppose the arguement is "why stay." Obligations, thats why, and that's the same reason struggling market-farmers who whine about not making it, that no one wants their produce and so on, should keep farming and make (maybe) a slightly lower profit by offering prices that attract a broader audience (for the betterment of the earth). It is my understanding, the prior-mentioned farmers get out of farming because they're not making enough to maintain their small steads, why not try pricing your buyers in so you sell more, meaning less goes to waste, you have less loss and so on. As someone who, this year, plans to sell to their co-workers the extras from her garden that would otherwise be wasted, I plan on offering them reasonable pricing so they're not put off by it all and my effort isn't for naught.

Just my opinion. I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers.

Actually I side with Uno on the pricing that farmers should be asking for their wares. General public views are skewed due to 3 or 4 major produce importers. They bring in produce from US or where ever and flood the excess into stores at extreme cheap prices. This starts a trend in consumer expectations and the prices are set. I gave got this info recently on Alberta farm fresh. Let me find it....

"Alberta Commercial Vegetable Growers Synopsis"
......
......
"Alberta producers are price takers with buyers setting prices according to competitors with more advantageous production conditions. Competitors DUMP Produce into Alberta markets when they have an oversupply of in-season veg. Increasing the implementation of laws to discourage "dumping" is one solution to improve local producer profits."


A garden that can be managed by one individual, then selling produce to your close contacts has little overhead in this situation, so lower costs are possible, but you may not be doing yourself any favors. Responsible vegetable production, regardless of how small the punt is hard work and the results are valuable. Your coWorkers are faced with a decision- drive to Superstore, pay 2.99 for a bunch of carrots, now 8 days old. Or, pay 3.99 for same, they are probably hand delivered, and maybe 12 hours old . That is what you are paying for, and there IS value in it. Persons that don' t see it are the same that put little value into most happy, healthy things in life. They have been "walmartized".
The market garden I dream of operating will need one or two employees at various times. Also, equipment. I already have the right tractor. It's green and with the loader and tiller and mower, it was 30,000. !!!!!!!!!!. Bought new, for 0% financing. Still need a transplanter, or maybe can find one to rent. More $$$$$. Plan to plant strawberries, will be several thousand for the plants, and I will need the transplanter by then. Auchhhhh. In order to get the Farm Status tax reductions, a producer needs ten thousand$$$ in gross sales annually. That is a lot of carrots. You better believe I will ask a fair price, but I will not set my pricing based on the big box stores. It is impossible, and I would tell anyone looking for fresh produce almost free should grow their own or get it from the dumpster.

I understand, and agree, but you ask the person struggling to pay their bills and keep food on their table if they will buy from a local farmer. Even if that person wants to know the farmer, wants their children to eat wholesome food locally and be connected to the community that way, the system forces them to go another route because the system doesn't acknowledge the relationship between small-farm food and the consumer. Is that the small farmers fault? No, but it is their problem, and if you open up the ability for a broader audience, word spreads.

Just sayin.

I go back to what I saw Uno say a ways back on this thread. Many people are spending too much $$$ on non- critical items- you know what instantly comes to mind these days - Gel Nails. !!!
"oh, the farmers market is soo expensive, I can't afford to buy there after I spend over 100$ per month on my nails.... What?"
Think about that for a minute people. 12 months per year, average $70 per set, another $40 or so for fills every few weeks, for grand total somewhere in the thousand dollar per year range.
That is what is considered a priority these days. Even families tha I know could not be making much $ purchase brand name clothing for their spoiled kids, gell nails and shopping trips to Edmonton, a five hour drive for my town. And they can' t afford farmers market carrots. No one can help people that think that way, except maybe Oprah.

I agree on that point, but there are those who do not spend on frivalities and still make very little ends meat. Maybe they are more of a minority than I tell myself; all I know is how I live (proudly gel-free since birth!)

Heh, we get goggle eyed co-workers when they find out our eggs are about 50 cents more than the grocery store.

Then, 15 minutes later, they're planning their weekend outings to the bars where they'll literally send their money down the toilet.

I am seeing what I think might be the diveregence of views. (just my opinion, that's all) A few posts back Sweets said she felt it was her 'obligation' to feed people. This is a calling or a mission, and being involved with changes to our local foodbank, I support helping those who cannot help themselves. But there is a whole other segment of society who have way too much gel nail money, and THAT is the segment most market garden farmers are marketing too. ANd yes, damn straight they can pay. And should!

If you want to be a farmer who sells at 'cost' out of an ideology, bless you. BUt we cannot expect that of all or farmers who hold the most costly land and highest overhead of anyone. Think about this...most farmers sell their produce at wholesale, but pay retail for every item they use. Seed, fuel, equipment, insurance. There are very few cost breaks for the farmer. We cannot expect every farmer to feel obligated to feed the poor. In fact...what should be happening is the better off should be buying from the farmer at his set price and carrying it over to the food bank and giving it to them. In a perfect world.

In our community there is a program where much of the local garden over abundance DOES go, for free, to the local foodbank. Most of us grow way more toamtoes and zuchinni than we can use and so local food bank users get an abundance of fruit and produce! For free. BUt this is usually not crops from farmers hoping to make a living from their land This is from small local gardeners who got a little carried away with their seed catalogue! (it's easy to do!)

This thread started over disgust I have with people who do NOT put their money where there mouth is. People who cry over the sacred birthright that farm land is, while NOT buying local, while begrudging and denying the local farmer a susatnable profit on his produce. IT's the gross hypocrisy of our society that burns my knickers! The vast majority of us have it WAY TOO EASY! Even as we think we don't. Because I DO value farmland and farming (when it actaully is farmland and not a bedrock mountain) I actively walk the walk and talk the talk and get my wallett out and pay the asked rate whenever I can.

Sweets, to undervalue what you produce is to take your brethern out at the knees. If you know people in need, then give them for free what they need, to the rest, it's cash on the barrel head!