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Selecting for Partridge color

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1 Selecting for Partridge color on Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:20 pm

KathyS

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I'm just starting again with the partridge pattern. Back in 2007 I had a couple of Partridge Cochins, but I didn't really do any breeding with them at that time and I'm just now starting to hatch some of my first Partridge Cochin chicks of the year. (By the way, they're adorable!) So I'll be waiting anxiously to see how they develop over the next several months.
I found a little video clip on this web page that focuses on the Partridge pattern in Chanteclers and thought others might be interested too. It doesn't go into great detail or talk about pullet vs cockerel lines, but maybe we can get some discussion going here.  Smile 

http://www.sustainablepoultrynetwork.com/

http://www.hawthornhillpoultry.com

2 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:01 pm

Hidden River

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Thanks for the link Kathy, this is my first year working with the Partridge Chanteclers, I have a lot of reading to do on them. I am not sure why I don't just pick white birds, then I don't have to worry about patterns, but patterns are so much nicer to look at...


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Raising Heritage Chickens, Guinea Fowl, Waterfowl, Katahdin Sheep, Angus and Jersey Cattle. Mother of 2 wonderful girls and wife to a very understanding Husband.
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3 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:11 pm

Hidden River

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One thing I did see on the bird he was saying had good color was she has shafting in her feathers, and from what I have read that is not a good trait.
I have some beautiful birds that are on the lighter side, but no shafting and the lacing is very nice. I have one that has a body type I really like but white ear lobes. So I do have some work to do.
The other line I have is much darker in color, more mahogany like he liked on the darker bird of his, but they are all badly shafted in the feather color, so not sure at this point I want to add that into my nicely marked birds? I probably will use the rooster from these darker colored lines on a couple hens and see what I get.


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Raising Heritage Chickens, Guinea Fowl, Waterfowl, Katahdin Sheep, Angus and Jersey Cattle. Mother of 2 wonderful girls and wife to a very understanding Husband.
www.hiddenriverranch.weebly.com
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4 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:43 pm

authenticfarm

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I'm following along here - I have done a bunch of researching on the partridge pattern, but my big annual bridal show that I co-produce is happening in 2.5 weeks and my brain is very much switched on to "WEDDING SHOW" right now and not so much thinking about chicken colour genetics.

When my brain returns - more coffee maybe? - I may be able to be more helpful.

http://www.partridgechanteclers.com

5 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:14 pm

nuthatch333

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That was really interesting, I must watch it a few more times. Hidden the first thing I noticed too was what looked like shafting on the good bird. When I watched it the second time it looked more like a shot of the lighter trim at the bottom of the wing feathers, which is ok. I will have to watch it again and pause it there. Also interesting is that the dark on the legs of the good bird he was OK with. I have been breeding away from the black that shows up on the hens especially after they age a little, and been used as breeders. The lacing he talked about a lot on the hackle is what I have commonly heard referred to as diamonds, which for me is easier to visualize. Also intesting was the colour of the beak, I have had to many other things to watch for but now I notice the top of the beak is in fact dark and yellow on the lower beak. Colour has been an ongoing challenge for me. All in all an interesting video, thanks Kathy.

6 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:01 pm

Butterboy

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From what I have read in a number of books, the difference between female and male lines of partridge is the presence of the pattern gene. The female line possesses this gene and the male line does not. In theory this produces a female with very tidy pencilling and even colour from the female line while the males from this line do not have a solid black breast and incorrect hackle colour. In contrast the male line produces a male with a solid black breast and well coloured hackles, while the female has mossy body feathers without pencilling and has poorly coloured hackles. I have also read stuff about a single dose of recessive white in the male line, but I'm not totally clear on that

I think the presence of the mahogany gene in the north american partridge birds reduces the effect of this and there for the need for double mating, but in the uk, where there is no mahogany gene, it is impossible to produce well coloured birds of both sexes from a single mating. In Germany it is so extreme that they have accepted them as separate colours so that female male line birds can be shown and vice versa.

7 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:47 pm

nuthatch333

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The double mating required for some breeds certainly adds to the challenge of producing show quality males and females, many people just breed for show quality females and accept that the males that produce these beautiful females will not be show quality themselves or visa versa if you want show quality males. With limited space and the challenge of keeping multiple roosters I am working more on the females. It is very frustrating though, my three breeding roosters are all black breasted, its hard to let the real nice boys go. Hopefully this year will yield me a really nice mahogany breasted male.
I have heard that the lighter color is accepted in the UK but for myself I like the darker color. It would be nice to have categories for female line males and male line females but perhaps that would just complicate things more.

8 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:41 am

coopslave

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I would love to get into this more. I have experience with double lacing and pencilling. Don't use mahogany breasted males for the female program. The cockerels only need some red in their breast not all read. Those red breasted males will cause you no end of worry.
Keep your 'black' breasted males if they have come from really nicely marked hens. That is the secret, keep males from you best hens, you will find that their breasts are mostly black with some red tips on the feathers.

I know this is a bit vague and I wanted to comment to keep this easy to find for me when I have the time to respond more fully. You all know I always have lots to say.......

9 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:29 am

nuthatch333

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Thats very interesting coopslave, I know you have worked hard on getting away from the double mating. All three of my males are from good hens, I will have to take a closer look at their breast feathers. When you say your have had issues with your red breasted males, what issues are you refering to?

10 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:35 am

Butterboy

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Here is a good link that explains double mating for pattern. Just remember that these are british birds and do not have the mahogany gene that north american birds do.

http://www.partridgewyandotteclub.co.uk/Genetics.html

11 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:11 am

KathyS

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This was just the kind of discussion I was hoping for!  Thank you!

Although I greatly admire people who put all their focus on just one breed and variety, I just can't seem to do that!   Rolling Eyes   So as a result I'll probably work on sort of a happy medium with my Partridge cochins.  I don't intend to go all out, trying for the perfect male or female color by double mating.  For me, just keeping a good middle ground is my main goal, although I believe if I have to lean one way or the other it will be towards keeping the females with beautiful, distinct lacing.
I'm hoping I don't mess up too bad, as I have a lovely foundation to work with.

The following is from Cochins International, and at this point I'm thinking it sounds logical.

[http://www.cochinsint.com/uploads/8/8/2/1/8821267/ci_-_partridge_cochins.pdf

Walter Brown writes in his article..."To my mind, the greatest drawback to the breeding of partridge Cochins is the idea that special matings must be made-one for the males and another for the females. I think most breeders today will say that they can produce very good males and females from the same mating. If this is true, there is no reason why anyone wanting to keep a few bantams should not take up the pretty partridge Cochins. To raise both exhibition males and females from the same mating, I would get my foundation stock from the same blood lines. Then I would select a male with good top color, not too dark, an even shade of red from the hackle to the saddle as possible. There will be some red in his breast, also some red in the lower body feathers and in the fluff; all but the red in the breast is allowed by the present standard. There will be a very little penciling or brown spots in the black of the hackle and saddle. For his mates, I would select two or three females of a rich mahogany color, feathers well penciled especially on the thighs. If you have it good on the thighs you will have it extra good in other sections. From this mating we should get good exhibition females and some fairly good exhibition males. I think very few breeders practice double mating, so all would be on the same footing and have equal chances in the show room."

http://www.hawthornhillpoultry.com

12 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:04 am

Butterboy

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Double mating doesn't seem to happen as frequently in NA as it does in Europe. The double mate black birds here, its pretty crazy.

I wonder how much of an impact the mahogany gene has. I dont have much hands on experience with partridge colouring, but have read at length about it. What are other peoples experiences with breeding well pencilled females to solid breasted males? Do you get good birds of both sexes or do they all turn out poor?

One thing I just noticed in the standards, the apa standards have the same colour for the hackle, while the PCGB, german and dutch standards have different shades for the male and female or partridge birds.

13 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:26 pm

KathyS

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Butterboy, I'm always so interested to hear about what's going on in the European poultry-world! You are our connection, so thank you so much for weighing in. Why on earth do they feel the need to double mate black poultry. What breed would this be?

Coopslave, I'm hoping you will feel compelled to offer a bit more on your experience with different matings and which combinations you found most valuable towards your goals. Many of us here are rather new with Partridge, so any insite that might help us avoid problems is very appreciated! And I know you've already been doing this for a few years, Nuthatch, so same goes for you!

I'd like to include a picture of my only partridge male. I started with two, but unfortunately one developed a leg infection and I ended up losing him. Actually rather than posting the picture, I'll just direct you to my page with the male and females. (and new stripey chicks!)
These are from the same bloodlines, but I'm assuming different matings. The male is quite correct with the black breast, and females have awesome markings so will this cause problems in the pencilling on female offspring? I guess I will find out anyway, but nice to have a heads up.

http://www.hawthornhillpoultry.com/partridge.html

http://www.hawthornhillpoultry.com

14 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:31 pm

Piet

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Butterboy wrote:Double mating doesn't seem to happen as frequently in NA as it does in Europe. The double mate black birds here, its pretty crazy.

I wonder how much of an impact the mahogany gene has. I dont have much hands on experience with partridge colouring, but have read at length about it. What are other peoples experiences with breeding well pencilled females to solid breasted males? Do you get good birds of both sexes or do they all turn out poor?

One thing I just noticed in the standards, the apa standards have the same colour for the hackle, while the PCGB, german and dutch standards have different shades for the male and female or partridge birds.

Butterboy, you are making many incorrect statements about breeding birds in Europe. What is your connection there, are you German and immigrated here by any chance?
Mahogany does not interfere with Black pepper, black always decides its placement. Mh only plays in the ground color.
Piet

http://pvgflemishgiants.tripod.com/

15 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:47 pm

Butterboy

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That cockerel is beautiful!

They double mate mostly black wyandottes, to get correct leg colour and under colour. I have a book with a large chapter on double mating, including for combs, plumage, leg colour, ear lobes everything. It is a really interesting read.

I would hazard a guess and say that your birds are leaning more towards a male line. From the close up of the female on your page, you can see that the pencilling on the hens thighs is more like transverse bars rather than the concentric  pencilling on the breast. I would say that it is a pretty good compromise though, as both sexes look fantastic and as far as I can tell pretty close to standard.

Piet, I am living in the UK right now, and have both spoken to breeders here and read a lot of British literature. I do not have much experience with the birds in Germany or the Netherlands other than reading translated versions of their standards, looking at their breed association sites and reading comparisons in books from a british point of view.

Thank you for clearing up the impact of mahogany, I was unsure if it had any impacts past changing the base colour.



Last edited by Butterboy on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

16 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:52 pm

nuthatch333

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Butterboy, thanks for the link there are some great pictures on it. The lacing in the Wyandottes is so good, we have a long way to go to get there in the partridge chanteclers. That is the fun of it though. The quote from Carefoot was good

Clive Carefoot used to say: “The proof of whether a male can be classed as ‘Pullet-Breeder’ is in the daughters he sires.”

17 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:20 pm

Piet

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Butterboy wrote:That cockerel is beautiful!

They double mate mostly black wyandottes, to get correct leg colour and under colour. I have a book with a large chapter on double mating, including for combs, plumage, leg colour, ear lobes everything. It is a really interesting read.

I would hazard a guess and say that your birds are leaning more towards a male line. From the close up of the female on your page, you can see that the pencilling on the hens thighs is more like transverse bars rather than the concentric  pencilling on the breast. I would say that it is a pretty good compromise though, as both sexes look fantastic and as far as I can tell pretty close to standard.

Piet, I am living in the UK right now, and have both spoken to breeders here and read a lot of British literature. I do not have much experience with the birds in Germany or the Netherlands other than reading translated versions of their standards, looking at their breed association sites and reading comparisons in books from a british point of view.

Thank you for clearing up the impact of mahogany, I was unsure if it had any impacts past chancing the base colour.
i an tell you have much English infuence so that makes sense now, I will write up some basics here also on the partridge. Piet

http://pvgflemishgiants.tripod.com/

18 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:02 pm

Piet

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A partridge in Holland is what you call here light brown, like your wild color (think bankiva)
A partridge here in North america is the same in Holland as "meerzomig rood patrijs", (meerzomig=more than one striping / rood=red / patrijs=partridge)
They also have "meerzomig patrijs" that resembles the variety without Mh (red amplifier)

I will just call it partridge as you know them here. No double mating needed (does the APA standard not ask for black breast?)

You can build the partridge on eb (asian partridge), e+(bankiva) and eWh(wheaton)
You can tell by the chick down which base allele you are working on, its the chassis of the color and eb is the best one for the partridge, e+ does not have enough black to support good pattern in the female breast. Look at light brown hens and silver grey hens, the breast is salmon and has no black pepper.
Take the "light brown" feather (brown with black pepper) and add Pg (pattern)
Pg is the glue that concentrates the black pepper into the lines. the feather now has a pattern, but does not have the desired ground color yet. So add Mh and now the ground color now has a red amplifier (Mh). The pattern is a play with black and when based off eb will have enough black for Pg to do its job (glue it together) If there is not enough black present you will get the crumbly appearance.

With breeding Welsummers (male need 15% red throughout breast) it is always a balancing act between peppering on the hens feather. When there is too much peppery black, we take a rooster with too much red in the breast and that cleans up on his daughters. Not enough black pepper then we take a male with all black breast. This trick is not really backed up with genetics (yet), we do not know exactly why this happens. It is strictly the findings of old time breeders.
A Welsummer we describe as a "red Partridge" basically your North American Partridge without the added Pg (pattern gene)

If you add to this Ml, it is the black enhancer and forces out the black one step so now black lace sits on outside of the web. This is the double laced pattern you see on Barnevelders and they are there for eb/eb, Pg/Pg, Mh/Mh, Ml/Ml , but can also be e+/e+ / Pg/Pg, Mh/Mh, Ml/Ml and eWh/eWh, Pg/Pg, Mh/Mh, Ml/Ml.

So I play mostly with Barnevelder double laced: eb/eb, Pg/Pg, Mh/Mh, Ml/Ml you play with
a partridge variety: eb/eb, Pg/Pg, Mh/Mh

In my and many others experiences, when the male has more brown in the breast, the pattern and especially the inner lace loses out on sharpness, Pg cannot do its job it it does not get enough "black pepper" to play with. The best males (and dutch standard call for this) have solid black breasts where some brown ground is permitted on its sides/flanks, because this does support the hens best pattern.

Piet

http://pvgflemishgiants.tripod.com/

19 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:26 pm

coopslave

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Piet wrote:In my and many others experiences, when the male has more brown in the breast, the pattern and especially the inner lace loses out on sharpness, Pg cannot do its job it it does not get enough "black pepper" to play with. The best males (and dutch standard call for this) have solid black breasts where some brown ground is permitted on its sides/flanks, because this does support the hens best pattern.

This has been my experience too. I do accept a little red in the breast on the very tip of a few feathers of my breeding males as well. If Kendra has a chance, a good shot of the breast of the male she got from me would be a very good example of what I mean.

KathyS, I promise more about my thoughts and experiences, but I am moving house at the moment and may not have a computer for a few days.

20 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:35 pm

Butterboy

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Does Pg have the same effect on a eWh base as it does on an eb base?

21 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:37 pm

nuthatch333

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Good post Piet, I have a partridge rooster recovering from a fight in my house right now. I just checked to see how much ground colour he had on his sides and flanks. I am happy to report he has quite a bit and a little on his chest although it is very subtle, I will check my other roosters as soon as I can. I will try and post a picture in the next day or two.

22 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:48 pm

Piet

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Butterboy wrote:Does Pg have the same effect on a eWh base as it does on an eb base?
yes, but wheaton has even less black as e plus. Eb,e plus and eWh are dominant over another in that order. Piet

http://pvgflemishgiants.tripod.com/

23 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:56 pm

Piet

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For example Dark cornish are based eWh and thus need much more "unknown black makers"(rb) to get the pattern. You can tell right away at day old, but much harder or impossible to tell when in adult plumage. Piet

http://pvgflemishgiants.tripod.com/

24 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:18 pm

Piet

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KathyS wrote:Butterboy, I'm always so interested to hear about what's going on in the European poultry-world!  You are our connection, so thank you so  much for weighing in.  Why on earth do they feel the need to double mate black poultry.  What breed would this be?

l[/url]

It can apply to a yellow legged black bird.
Undercolor is to be dark slate, but that gives dark cast mostly on the females legs on the front.
If you take a "wrong rooster" that has some white or white undercolor near the skin, especially near the back to tail region and neck, that will clean up the dark tinge on the front of the female legs. I would thing that on a partridge Chanteclair the dusky yellow is permitted for this same reason, because they should be slate undercolor. You simply cannot have slate all the way down to the skin and expect clean yellow legs. Most yellow legged dark plumage breeds it is permitted in "slight" form, not desired and in strong form becomes a big fault..in Europe.
Piet

http://pvgflemishgiants.tripod.com/

25 Re: Selecting for Partridge color on Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:57 am

CynthiaM

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Kathy, only have a few good words for you Smile . You are crazy! You have enough on your plate, as far as I am concerned (and you know I am kidding you, my dear). But sell me all your blue cochin breeders and then you only have to worry about buff and partridge cochins, laughing out loud here now. I know that ain't gonna happen, and so I tease easily to you. Enjoy your trip and walk down a very deep lane, that is a wonderful thing, but boy, you certainly have chosen a long and hard path to walk. My hat off to you girl. Me. I am too simple and lazy. Only focusing on two breeds, and you know what they are, enough for this lazy gal here. Have a most beautiful day, CynthiaM.

Joan, copy a link to this thread, save to your desktop and then you will always have it on file Smile . Unless the thread goes missing and a thread can disappear and all has been lost, done that, so much information gone by the wayside that could have been so useful for a'learning' stuff over the years. Just sayin'.....

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