"Mule" birds? Heda Gobbler, in here please

In BigRock's meat bird post you stated

heda gobbler wrote:...I had Mistral Gris this summer and butchered mine at 11 weeks.  Most were between 2 and 3 kilos and so far have been easy to roast and delicious.  They won't reproduce themselves as they are four way crosses.

and I'd like to know more.  The other day, CynthiaM and Uno and I were discussing this issue.  I'd like to ask you to explain this.  Because we didn't totally understand the concept, in that dogs, birds or cows are cross-breds if they breed with another breed within their species, but produce sterile, terminal, end-o'-the-line "Mules" if crossed with another species, as in with horses and donkeys, or Muscovies and other ducks.

So can you or anyone please explain what part of the process to create Mistral Gris creates a Mule?  Or are you just saying that the attributes that make a Mistral Gris a valuable bird to keep as a meat bird are lost because once you re-breed them, it's a crap shoot as to what results in the mixed chicks that occur?

Thank you!

I didn't mean to suggest they are "mules". I understand that only happens when two related species (guinea fowl + chicken, horse + donkey) breed. - they produce a sterile offspring (like Nature said "woah! that's wrong, let's not have any more of these!") The Mistral Gris grandparents are all chickens, so not producing mules, but I meant they do not reproduce AS Mistral Gris ("reproduce themselves") , but "shatter" into aspects of their four grandparents. So if you wanted to keep Mistral Gris and breed them one to another you would find very quickly you do not have Mistral Gris any more but the chicks would be a mish mash of the four breeds that created the Mistral Gris. They will not breed true. TruNorth on ACE is very good at explaining this in more detail. I understand the Freedom Rangers and Rainbow Rangers are the same. You have to keep going back to the source breeders to get the Mistral Gris every year. Sneaky stuff.

Having said that I am intrigued and have kept two of my Mistral Gris hens and will cross them to a Hatchery Cornish Rooster in the spring, just to see what happens. Ruffled Feathers is going to try the same thing. I hope that whatever happens will be good to eat. We'll try to post the results here in the summer.

Is that what you are asking?

heda gobbler wrote:
Having said that I am intrigued and have kept two of my Mistral Gris hens and will cross them to a Hatchery Cornish Rooster in the spring, just to see what happens.  Ruffled Feathers is going to try the same thing.  I hope that whatever happens will be good to eat.  We'll try to post the results here in the summer.

I will be watching this thread in the spring to see your outcome.
Thanks again.

farmchiq wrote:Or are you just saying that the attributes that make a Mistral Gris a valuable bird to keep as a meat bird are lost because once you re-breed them, it's a crap shoot as to what results in the mixed chicks that occur?

Thanks - that's the answer I was looking for. Just trying to straighten it out.

Do you know what the 4 breeds are that make the Mistral Gris up? I know, I can probably Google it.

No, I think it is a trade secret. Even they may be composites of something else.

I think the hens are starting to lay now but I won't hatch until spring. They are big girls so hope they make it to then. I know Ruffled Feathers kept some MG hens over last winter, so they can survive.

farmchiq wrote:

farmchiq wrote:Or are you just saying that the attributes that make a Mistral Gris a valuable bird to keep as a meat bird are lost because once you re-breed them, it's a crap shoot as to what results in the mixed chicks that occur?

Thanks - that's the answer I was looking for.    Just trying to straighten it out.

Do you know what the 4 breeds are that make the Mistral Gris up?  I know, I can probably Google it.

Here is a thread about Mistral Gris.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

farmchiq wrote:

farmchiq wrote:Or are you just saying that the attributes that make a Mistral Gris a valuable bird to keep as a meat bird are lost because once you re-breed them, it's a crap shoot as to what results in the mixed chicks that occur?

Thanks - that's the answer I was looking for.    Just trying to straighten it out.

Do you know what the 4 breeds are that make the Mistral Gris up?  I know, I can probably Google it.

I've tried to find it for the various broiler breeds, even google doesn't know. It's more secretive than the CSIS, CIA or FBI. But then chicken breeding genetics is a 70 billion dollar industry in the states (I didn't find a quick number for Canada, yet) so easily billions of dollars worldwide, and I read somewhere not long ago that these genetics, for all the world, were held by 3 companies. But that's regular broilers, not sure where Mistral Gris falls into that.

We should get wiki-leaks on it. Reality is, even if you were to find the parent chicken breeds, those 'breeds' as we see them are likely so far away from the original heritage breed that they are likely to be unrecognizable. But that's just my theory, as they have been bred for only two things, fast growth and lots of meat - the other traits wouldn't really matter. But maybe the mother line is a great egg layer too. I wonder if those original genetics came from some of the work of the research universities in developing specialized breeds...

I will say, that I am pleasantly surprised with some of my crosses this year (for egg layers) in how uniform they are not only in size, shape but colouring too. Some were easily predicted, but others are surprising uniform in all aspects. I can't wait to see what I get for eggs. Soon.

I think it would be a real feat to grow 4 strains of birds, that when strategically crossed, and then crossed again, produce something that appears uniform in growth, appearance and size with no variation.

Muscovies bred with any other breed of duck is a mule as well   

From my understanding MGs will breed but they won't look or necessarily grow like the parent birds.  We were happy with our MGs and had planned to keep a couple but oops got too overzealous on processing day.  Look forward to hear how breeding and hatching goes in Spring Ruffled and Heda

That was a good explanation, Heda.

farmchiq wrote:

farmchiq wrote:Or are you just saying that the attributes that make a Mistral Gris a valuable bird to keep as a meat bird are lost because once you re-breed them, it's a crap shoot as to what results in the mixed chicks that occur?

Thanks - that's the answer I was looking for.    Just trying to straighten it out.

Do you know what the 4 breeds are that make the Mistral Gris up?  I know, I can probably Google it.

Soo here's the things. The 'breeds' are the grandparent birds. The grandparent birds are pure breeding strains, that reproduce themselves (at least for the MG from my discussions with Emily regarding this topic), and are chosen not on specific traits but how the resulting offspring from crosses occur.  When people ask what breeds go into these crosses often the creators have very little idea often because a mix of different breeds (some times as many as 10) can go into the creation. Than the creator had the help of Mr. Shaver so I have a sneaking suspicion that birds from Mr.Shavers crossing barn may have ended up in the creation. Each rustic broiler seems to have more influence from one bird than all the others - Barred Rocks (the good old lines that no longer exist) were the main influence in the creation of MG.

MG will breed but the hens are large and will not lay that many eggs, and again roosters are large so it's harder for them to breed hens. You will get something when you breed them, what it is could very dramatically and will not grow as fast as the MG

three main companies own most chickens genetics, this includes most rustic broilers. However the creator of the MG still owns the genetics to these birds.