Basil cross pollination info

Got three species of basil.

Ocimum americanum, O. tenuiflorum, and O. basilicum

anyone have good knowledge on what will cross with what?

If I remember correctly, O. americanum and O. basilicum will cross to make o. x citriodorum. I have never heard of O. sanctum/tenuiflorum crossing. And of course, if you have multiple varieties of O. basilicum they will all cross with each other.

Oh, and later tonight I should have time to double check my reference texts on that cross for you.

"If I remember correctly, O. americanum and O. basilicum will cross to make o. x citriodorum"

thanks, I was aware of that hybrid, but wasn't sure how easily they hybridized. Like say take a plant of each, plant them side by side. Would one expect 1% hybridization? 50% hybridization? 100%? see what I mean? Also, is the citriodorum an F1 hybrid, or is it a new inbred line created from a hybridization event that took place in the past?

Since I produce my seeds for the backyard grower and not the commercial farmer, I try to maintain a bit of diversity in each line. Therefore, while I fine tune my selections for local performance, i try to maintain a tiny amount of diversity as a genetic safety net. For instance, my big head broccoli consistently produces big heads but they don't all finish at the same time and while some heads are pretty much grocery store green, others take on a purplish hue.

Hence my question with the Basil. I'm hoping to get a "feel" for their potential for hybrizing so I can made an educated guess on how much isolation to offer. While 0% hybridization would be acceptable, 5% hybridization would be ideal.

Omega Blue Farms wrote:
"If I remember correctly, O. americanum and O. basilicum will cross to make o. x citriodorum"

thanks, I was aware of that hybrid, but wasn't sure how easily they hybridized. Like say take a plant of each, plant them side by side. Would one expect 1% hybridization? 50% hybridization? 100%? see what I mean? Also, is the citriodorum an F1 hybrid, or is it a new inbred line created from a hybridization event that took place in the past?

Since I produce my seeds for the backyard grower and not the commercial farmer, I try to maintain a bit of diversity in each line. Therefore, while I fine tune my selections for local performance, i try to maintain a tiny amount of diversity as a genetic safety net. For instance, my big head broccoli consistently produces big heads but they don't all finish at the same time and while some heads are pretty much grocery store green, others take on a purplish hue.

Hence my question with the Basil. I'm hoping to get a "feel" for their potential for hybrizing so I can made an educated guess on how much isolation to offer. While 0% hybridization would be acceptable, 5% hybridization would be ideal.

I've been mulling over an answer to this question for a couple of days trying to decide how to answer. First, are you aware that the hybrid would be an interspecific cross, not truly an F1? I have grown some O. x citriodorum that never even produces flowers. And most if not all others that do would be more akin to a mule or moullard.

Given that basil has perfect flowers though, you'd probably get less than 25% hybridization. The only way you'll ever get 100% no matter what crops you're trying to cross is to either cross two self-incompatible plants next to eachother or do the pollination by hand.

Finally, I really can't understand why you would find crossing desirable?

F1 can apply to an interspecific cross - it simply means the first filial generation of a cross between distinctly different genotypes.

ipf wrote:F1 can apply to an interspecific cross - it simply means the first filial generation of a cross between distinctly different genotypes.

Sorry you are correct but I consider it a technicality. It is not a common or useful practice to label interspecific crosses as F1, since in the plant world these get their own species name i.e. x citriodorum or in the animal world just their own name I.e. mule whereas the F1 designation is reserved for varietal crosses. The x here is the indicator of hybridization.

edit: I will clarify as usual that my expertise is in horticulture and to some extent agronomy, some additional research I just did indicates that apparently fish breeders may refer to species crosses as F1, so I can't speak to animal interspecies breeding really.

What I was trying to do, albeit rather clumsily I guess, was to clarify weather OBF was aware that the cross would likely result in sterile offspring.

Relatedness between species is a continuum; some species within a given genus are very closely related, and many pairs of species (both plant and animal) are completely interfertile and produce fertile offspring. Even intergeneric crosses are not uncommon, in some families.

There is disagreement and endless debate over whether two given "species" are really separate species after all, and there are frequent flip-flops in nomenclature.

Well, we can just agree to disagree; I for one am quite content to call an interspecific cross an F1. IMO the definition is reasonably clear, broadly understood, widely applicable, and useful.

ipf wrote:Relatedness between species is a continuum; some species within a given genus are very closely related, and many pairs of species (both plant and animal) are completely interfertile and produce fertile offspring. Even intergeneric crosses are not uncommon, in some families.

There is disagreement and endless debate over whether two given "species" are really separate species after all, and there are frequent flip-flops in nomenclature.

Well, we can just agree to disagree; I for one am quite content to call an interspecific cross an F1. IMO the definition is reasonably clear, broadly understood, widely applicable, and useful.

I can agree to that, especially considering the mess that nomenclature is these days.

...I'm only agreeing to the agreement to disagree part, not the species continuum part of course seeing as if two species are completely interfertile they are by definition already the same species.

not too concerned about technicalities, and theoretical debate, but IPF has a pretty good take on things. The line that seperates species is arbitrary in nature and exists only in our heads, not the living organisms around us.

What matters to me is the actual practical application. Terms like F1, F2, and P1, when used in practice, tell us specifics about what to expect from a genepool. For instance, one can expect an F1 to be uniform in nature but not reproduce uniformly.

The O. citriodorum I've had in mind is Lemon Basil which is sometimes called O. citriodorum and other sources refer to it as O. americanum. I have not selfed any of the lines yet and therefore have no idea of the state of the actual genepool. Will it behave as an F1, P1, or be sterile as suggested here?

I understand the realities of 100% hybridizing, I'm not sure how exaggerating for effect changes the nature of the question?

As to whether anyone sees value in allowing a little crossing, this was not the nature of my question. The nature of my question was to get a feel from other's informed opinions and/or experiences on how readily the three species will intercross.

1) Has anyone saved seed from a basil variety grown within a hundred feet of another variety? If so, what were the seeds like?

2) While we are at it, has anyone saved Lemon Basil seeds? what were the results of the seeds produced?

Alright, I opened my mouth and made a couple of mistakes in my wording. Apologies all around, though I can assure you that I was not exagerating for effect and was sincere in my desire to know what value you saw in purposeful crossing, and why you thought that was valuable for gardeners. But honestly, I'm no longer interested, so whatever.

You see no value in technicalities and theoretical debate, but knowing where each of us draws that arbitrary line in our heads is the only way for us to get anywhere here. So I guess I have nothing more to contribute. Good luck with your crossing.

Country Thyme Farm wrote:though I can assure you that I was not exagerating for effect

no, I was by going 0%, 50%, 100%. I was trying to convey a sense of range.

don't get me wrong, I enjoy an academic debate as much as the next person, but this is a "gardening" forum and the word gardening tends to refer to practical application, not academic theory. Especially on a chicken site. In addition, my question was practical in nature, not theoretical.

to recap

"anyone have good knowledge on what will cross with what?"