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Orlopp Bronze

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1 Orlopp Bronze on Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:15 am

Omega Blue Farms

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In the above linked discussion, Jon posted some comments I wrote a year ago on another forum.

In the world of corporate agriculture, there are several legal mechanisms that the agricultural factories use to protect their sense of ownership over their genepools. It was unfortunate that I used the word "patent" as a generic reference to this legal protection in the case of the Orlopp turkey. A patent is just one specific form of protecting ownership and I have no factual reason to believe that this is the form relied upon by the owner of the Orlopp, Hybrid Turkeys, a division of Hendrix Genetics.

I wrote Hendrix Genetics a letter clarifying whether or not I could use the Orlopp Bronze in my heritage Bronze Breeding project. Rather than write me back, their Orlopp rep preferred to talk on the phone. In the phone conversation, Trevor made the following points crystal clear.

1) The Orlopp is not a heritage Bronze. He said that th is because it is a hybrid and cannot naturally reproduce.

2) Hendix Genetics is not in the business of supplying heritage genetics.

3) I could not utilize the Orlopp in my breeding program without entering into a contract with Hendrix to do so.

4) THe cost of entering into such a contract would be cost prohibitive to a small time player such as myself.

5) The name Orlopp is trademarked and cannot be used in advertizing without the permission of Hendrix Genetics. This means that you cannot make a backyard cross with an Orlopp and then tell your customers that you used an Orlopp.


So, my personal conclusion is this. The Orlopp turkey is simply a factory white dressed in Bronze. It has none of the benefits of a heritage bronze, yet possesses it's negatives (less clean plucking). The Orlopp has no advantage over a factory white and therefore why not just save a few bucks and stick with the whites.



http://www.OmegaBlueFarms.ca

2 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:42 am

ipf


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They can own the name, and sue you for using that. They can't patent the bird itself in Canada, unlesss it's GM, which it isn't.

From what I've read, the Broad Breasted Bronze can't reproduce naturally either, and virtually all reproduction is through perpetuated by AI. THere is a difference between "Standard Bronze" and "Broad Breasted Bronze" (as I'm sure you know).

Only the Standard Bronze are considered to be heritage turkeys.

3 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:42 am

Arcticsun

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Fascinating and frightening at the same time.
So HEIRLOOM is the new "Improved Heritage"?

4 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:20 pm

jon.w

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thanks for clarifying it for us Very Happy

5 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:10 am

Omega Blue Farms

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I've already acknowledged that the word patent was probably not the best choice. But as I also stated, Hendrix Genetics has many other tools at their disposal for protecting their control over their genepools. I invite anyone who needs clarification to visit their website and review their terms and conditions. Basically, if you grow their birds, you are considered in agreement with their terms and conditions. There is enough there for them hinge a very convincing (and therefore expensive) legal case. While Canada's patent laws may not support their notion of ownership, Canada's contract laws certainly will.

Another weapon at Hendrix's disposal is our Turkey Marketing boards. Here in BC, the turkey marketing board has jurisdiction over every single turkey in this province. They have been granted the power to dispose of any turkey flock they consider a threat to the turkey marketplace. There are no provisions for their opinion to be justified. If Hendrix feels any turkey flock is a threat to their business, they will have no problems getting the marketing board to do their dirty work.

http://www.OmegaBlueFarms.ca

6 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:27 am

Omega Blue Farms

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Much of what is written about the Broad Breasted Bronze is incomplete and often leads to false conclusions.

What most heritage breeders don't realize is that heritage turkeys were in fact an early version of the broad breasted bird, often referred to as Primitive Broad Breasted. The APA standard uses the primitive broad breasted body type when describing (and therefore defining) the heritage turkey.

It's unfortunate that Rochester marketed their own version of the Bronze as a Broad Breasted bird, it was really a Primitive Broad Breasted bird. It was an excellent example of a TRUE heritage turkey and conformed very nicely to the APA standard. It did breed naturally.

In contrast, the Orlopp is a true modern broad breasted bird and could not be considered heritage.

http://www.OmegaBlueFarms.ca

7 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:19 am

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Omega Blue Farms wrote:Much of what is written about the Broad Breasted Bronze is incomplete and often leads to false conclusions.

What most heritage breeders don't realize is that heritage turkeys were in fact an early version of the broad breasted bird, often referred to as Primitive Broad Breasted. The APA standard uses the primitive broad breasted body type when describing (and therefore defining) the heritage turkey.

It's unfortunate that Rochester marketed their own version of the Bronze as a Broad Breasted bird, it was really a Primitive Broad Breasted bird. It was an excellent example of a TRUE heritage turkey and conformed very nicely to the APA standard. It did breed naturally.

In contrast, the Orlopp is a true modern broad breasted bird and could not be considered heritage.
...............It's interesting that you say that Rochesters "" BBB's "" actually did breed naturally ! I have been discussing this topic with others and so far everyone seems to think that AI is the only way that you could further this breed ? I have in my possesion two hens and one Tom that are said to be BBB's from the west as per the seller and the seller said that they do breed naturally .I was beginning to think that I had something else ? but after hearing from her and now with your statement I might just have BBB's ..........thanks

8 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:34 pm

Grandma Art

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Very interesting. Prairie Dog, if in question try breeding your birds you think are BBB... I would think if your birds get to Commercial size in allotted time , and can breed naturally that they would be a very good quality. My question here would be... These Hatcheries that hatch these eggs must buy the eggs fertilized from "Commercial EGG Producers" am I correct? would it be possible to contact some of these people and ask some of these questions?

http://www.sheltiesalberta.com

9 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:07 am

Omega Blue Farms

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Rochester even advertised that their in-house BBB could breed naturally. I never had a problem with the line's fertility. The very first batch I purchased from them in 2002? bred naturally and one hen hatched out a clutch on new years day, and then went on to successfully raise them. A tom I kept from that first batch lived for 6 years and successfully fathered chicks in his final year.

A good quality heritage bronze line will push the weight limits. As for any heritage breed, it takes skill and knowlwedge to know how to select the better quality breeders. Then it isn't enough to select the best birds, the breeder needs to know how to maintain them. No different than working with Standard Cornish or any other meat type heritage breeds.

http://www.OmegaBlueFarms.ca

10 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:08 pm

Susan


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Sorry if this is off topic a bit, but how does the Ridley Bronze fit into all of this? I have a pair that are mating naturally. 3 of their eggs just hatched yesterday and I would love to know more about the breed.

11 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:45 pm

Grandma Art

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Susan wrote:Sorry if this is off topic a bit, but how does the Ridley Bronze fit into all of this? I have a pair that are mating naturally. 3 of their eggs just hatched yesterday and I would love to know more about the breed.


I have Ridleys also, and they are a Heritage breed...

http://www.sheltiesalberta.com

12 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:26 pm

Susan


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But were the BBB developed using the Ridley, or independent of them? How about this Orloff? Just wondering how(if) they all relate to one another

13 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:34 pm

Grandma Art

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I am not a expert, but I would guess that they are all related just different lines... as we all know all the turkeys came from the wilds and through select breeding programs through out the ages they have come up with different lines.
There is more Bronze lines then the ....
* Orloff Hybred
* BBBT- Rochersters lines
* Norfolk Bronze
* Ridley Bronze
* Wishard Strain of Bronze Turkeys
* American Bronze Turkeys.
and probably many more that I have not yet found in my search.


For people like myself I have some Ridley Bronze Turkeys and I will raise them and my label on them will be Ridley. I dont know what lines they are from as there are more then one line of Ridley Bronze. This can and does get confusing but interesting if you want to go back and find out where your heritage birds came from. I am just wondering if more of this isnt Breeders then lines....




I like this quote I found while looking for other strains of Bronze Turkeys...
"Either a turkey is a bronze or it isn't. Either it reflects the APA (or CPA) standard and performs as a Bronze or it doesn't."

http://www.sheltiesalberta.com

14 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:19 pm

Susan


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Thank you Grandma Art Smile

15 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:38 pm

DLC


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The U. Of S. Kept a line of Ridley Bronze for years and were sold off a few years ago. They kept this breed because they are a canadian developed bronze turkey. Also if you are breeding Ridley Bronze please contact Margaret Thomson [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] They are so rare they do a census to see how many breeding females there are in Canada. I think at the moment there is only 90 hens that they know about. So if anyone has Ridley Hens please contact her. I guess I really hijacked the topic this time. Oh Well

16 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:46 pm

Grandma Art

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DLC wrote: The U. Of S. Kept a line of Ridley Bronze for years and were sold off a few years ago. They kept this breed because they are a canadian developed bronze turkey. Also if you are breeding Ridley Bronze please contact Margaret Thomson [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] They are so rare they do a census to see how many breeding females there are in Canada. I think at the moment there is only 90 hens that they know about. So if anyone has Ridley Hens please contact her. I guess I really hijacked the topic this time. Oh Well

my birds are listed with her... Very Happy

http://www.sheltiesalberta.com

17 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:17 pm

Susan


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I guess I better write an email, since 2 more just hatched Smile Smile.

18 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:15 pm

KathyS

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Susan wrote:I guess I better write an email, since 2 more just hatched Smile Smile.

cheers
Great news!

http://www.hawthornhillpoultry.com

19 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:03 pm

Susan


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Thanks! I'm very excited. More in the bator! Smile

20 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:31 am

Omega Blue Farms

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Ridley is a rather complicated but interesting story. I'm not going to take the time to look up specific details, but instead work off the top of my head. Some specifics may not be exactly accurate, but you'll still get a good idea of the overall picture. I'll start by sharing seperate individual stories, and then we will try to knit them together.

The Rare Breeds Canada liturature I've read suggests that the first primitive broad breasted birds arrived in Langley BC from the UK. This raises questions for me, but I'll stay on track. From there they spread out going west and south, triggering a revolution in the turkey industry. Some lines maintained and refined the primitive broad breasted body type while other continued selecting for additional meat, leading to the modern day factory broad breasted bird.

Decades ago, there was a hatchery in the Canadian Prairies (Anstey? Hatchery) that sold primitive broad breasted poults produced by a Mr Ridley. When the Hatchery announced that they were going to no longer sell those poults, Dr Crawford bought a bunch and initiated his University version of the Ridley line. By the time the University was done (3 decades later), the line had shrunk by an average of 10 pounds per bird and their growth rate slowed to needing roughly 9 months to reach market condition. Traditionally, a decent line needs roughly 6 months.

However, in conversations with Bob Gunter, an old retired traditional turkey farmer who was born on an old traditional turkey farm (you get the picture), I learned his farm also did business with the same prairie hatchery. So in a sense, his family has also kept their own version of the Ridley line but because they were utilizing it comercially, maintained the commercial properties that made the Anstey Bronze so popular in the first place. Yes, folks, the true original Ridley was a hatchery production bird.

Around 2003? after my Rochester Broad Breasted Bronze broke the rules and mated naturally, I started asking questions. I bought the poults (along with some whites) strictly as food and to test my ability of raise turkeys and chickens together. I had no intention of breeding turkeys. However, thanksgiving came and went and only the whites found their way to slaughter, the bronze intrigued me. They were defying all the rules. I studied them intently, looking for answers to the questions they produced. By the time Christmas came, they were laying fertile eggs and I just knew that there was more to them than basic factory bird. Their fate changed from food to breeding stock and I changed from Araucana breeder to Araucana/turkey breeder.

I phoned up Rochester looking for answers and eventually I got a call back from their Bronze turkey breeder. I must of got him on a good day because we had an excellent conversation where he gave me all kinds of history and advice on their line. I found it interesting to note that Kardoch Bronze is in the pedigree which becomes evident when one studies head/neck/caruncles of various bronze lines. I also learned that the Rochester was not a true modern Broad Breasted bird. When pressed for why they advertised it as Broad Breasted, he said that it was an older version of the broad breasted and has always been advertised as broad breasted since it's inception.

Around 2003/4? I met a friend up Island who was also raising real heritage turkeys. He got his from Bill Braden in Ontario. He had Ridley and Kardoch Bronze and he introduced me to Bob Gunter, the seasoned turkey breeder I mentioned above. My observations on that day were that the Gunter birds were indistinguishable from my Rochester birds. The Kardoch had impressive form, but seemed to be a step back from the Gunter Birds. The Ridley seemed to have more in common with a wild bronze than the Gunter birds. My first perception with the Ridley is shaped by repeated conversations with this friend and my personal observations of his birds. FWIW, my observations are consistent with notes produced by the university itself.

In 2010, a friend from the Duncan area let me observe her turkeys and amongst them were some Ridley shipped in from Performance Hatchery that year. I was impressed with the growth rate and comformation. They were very much like the Rochester Bronze and if the two lines were allowed to intermingle, one would have a tough time distinguishing one from the other. They are also very much like the Gunter birds with one very interesting exception. The Gunter birds are not as friendly and not as quick to get their bellies rubbed. Both the Performance Ridley and Rochester bronze love having their bellies rubbed. I believe this clue reveals a little secret about their selective history.

I can only speculate what has been done to the Performance version of the Ridley, but will say with absolute certainty that they are not the result of simply selecting from within the university genepool alone. One cannot make such a drastic change in that short period of time without first outcrossing to bring in the missing traits. You cannot selecvt for what doesn't exist.

I do not say this as a condemnation of Performance, I believe that outcrossing the Univerity version was the only responsible option if it was to be marketed to backyarders in support of heritage turkey conservation. The University version was a waste of feed and desperately needed outcrossing. And I do believe that there is room for such an outcross to be made while maintaining a position of integrity. Anstey hatchery supplied alot of bronze poults to alot of private turkey breeders across North America. Just like is the case with the Gunter flock here on the island, some of these flocks live on functioning in obscurity today. For all we know, maybe even the Rochester version of the Bronze can be traced back to Anstey Hatchery.

The Orlopp story is different. While they bought an old family line, and are using this fact to confuse the heritage turkey marketplace, a few key distinguishing facts need to be remembered:

1) what is currently being sold as Orlopp is not the same bird traditionally sold as Orlopp. The version they are marketing is a factory hybrid, not a traditional pure breeding line.

2) They own the rights to the name and genepool. As far as I know, the Ridley bronze sold by Performance are still public domain in name and genepool.


http://www.OmegaBlueFarms.ca

21 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:09 pm

Grandma Art

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Very interesting post !! Thanks.

http://www.sheltiesalberta.com

22 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:23 pm

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Thanks , That was a eye opener , much appreciated

23 Re: Orlopp Bronze on Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:35 pm

Susan


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Thank you, yes, very informative Smile I'm still hoping to talk to Roy Crawford about them one of these days, though I know of a couple others who were working on the Ridleys as well, before they were dispersed. Its a shame the U of S let them go.

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