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Partridge Chantecler cockerels all comments welcome! (lots of pics)

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coopslave

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Here are the boys from the hatches this spring. Only these 2 have made it this long. I don`t REALLY like either of them, but I like things about them. Rolling Eyes
I would like to hear all comments you would like to share. Don`t worry, I am very critical of them and my feelings won`t be hurt. I would like to see if others are seeing the same good and bad in them that I am.

Here is the first guy. He is the one with the pea comb I am going to use for 1 maybe 2 hatches and then get rid of. Curiousity has me wanting to see what comes of his offspring.




This is the second guy. I won`t say anything about him, lets hear what you have to say.




Side by each.



These are the young pullets from the same hatch. They are still pretty covered in pin feathers. It will be another couple of weeks before they are fully feathered in.






Just so you know what the girls look like that were hatched with the boys.

I am happy to hear the good, bad and the ugly. I just like discussion. I am agree, but I may disagree as well. FIRE AWAY! Laughing

KathyS

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Well, if you could take that big black chest on roo #1, cut and paste to add that nice little comb from roo #2....

Hehe, I'm no expert on the Partridge - you and a few others on here have the experience to critique these birds and I'll enjoy reading the pros and cons.

It always seems I like bits and pieces of each of my birds. Why is it so hard to get that one awesome, perfect cockerel with everything we want, all rolled up into one perfect package? Rolling Eyes

http://www.hawthornhillpoultry.com

DoubleSSRanch

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I would most definatley not use #1, due to that horible comb. Its hard to breed out.

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Hidden River

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That's funny DoubleS you mention that on this rooster, but yet you felt size was much more important than combs on my wyandotte roosters?

I do not have much knowledge on the chanteclers or even partridge coloring but I would agree with Kathy S that if you could take the comb off Rooster 2 and put it on rooster 1 you would have a pretty nice bird. I like his coloring, his body look nice and full, not sure how a chantie tail set should be, maybe his is a bit high, but the coloring looks much nicer in Rooster 1 than Rooster 2 for sure.


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DoubleSSRanch

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I say that because body wise, these 2 are pretty much the same size.... Its not a size problem here, not the same issue as with the wyandottes.. ALSO with the BLRW, one of the biggest things missing in the breed is the size. I have been told by 2 very wise and important people to go for size first above anything else when working with the BLRW.. When chosing from only 2 birds, youd want to get rid of the hardest things to breed out aka the comb. The wrong colored cockeral has a wider chest anyways it looks like. So win win I would think personally.

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BriarwoodPoultry

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I can understand wanting to use the correctly colored rooster for a couple hatches, just to see. It can't hurt!

The second rooster looks like he has a very slightly broader chest, but I don't like his tail set as much. I'm not very well versed in chantecler, but there's something that doesn't look right to me about the tail (by all means please correct me if I'm wrong!!!!!). Either way I think it will be very interesting to see what comes of these two with their ladies!

I was under the impression that the chantecler needs improvements in size as well?

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CynthiaM

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Well, I certainly hope that you get some good replies to this thread. Annoying how two birds could have a trait that could be passed from one to the other to make a much better bird isn't so easy. Personally, the one with the huge comb is the one that I would take out. but I absolutely am not very experienced with things. I just think a comb that size would be difficult to get right in the end, but I really have no clue, just a first impression, his comb does not look very good at all. Good luck, and I wish you well, I will be following this thread for sure, have that beautiful day, CynthiaM.

Dark Wing Duck

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Maybe try to get a new, unrelated rooster that is of better quality. I would think that last hen is good though! She really looks full and thick in that picture.

9 Re:Partridge Cockerels on Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:44 am

KatuskiFarms

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Well Coopslave, what will you do? I say keep them both, breed them both. My P. chanteclers came from show quality stock, and only got 2 roos out of 16! Both were that same reddish bay in the breast. Apparently the black breast is hard to come by. So, I don't know anything about genetics (trying to learn)but you must plan on breeding Mr. Blackbreast due to this one feature. Your poults look like they have excellent combs,literally not there which is desirable.. so give him a few romps right? Smile

KathyS

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I would agree with hatching out some chicks from each rooster. One other reason to give the black breasted roo a try is that he has better leg color. The pullets seem to have dusky yellow legs and feet, which is acceptable but of course yellow is prefered. The pullets do have good combs, so maybe that flawed comb on your roo will not be passed along to many of the chicks?
I would think poor combs would be something quite easy to sort out later when the cockerels reach a good size for eating! Smile
And you may just end up with a few chicks that get the best of both worlds, that beautiful chest color, and hopefully a more acceptable comb.

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HigginsRAT


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Last edited by HigginsRAT on Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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coopslave

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Great feedback everyone!

Now for some of my thoughts, as random as they are sometimes.

As far as the comb goes, I am not convinced that the pea comb will have a huge influence on the cushion comb and that is part of the reason I want to try him out and use him for breeding. I do have a hen or two that has a bit more of a `wyandottey`comb (rosecomb) and I think he would be interesting crossed with them to actually help make the combs more cushion in the females. Just may thoughts right now, you may hear me pulling my hair out in the spring complaining about all my bad combs from the couple of breedings I plan to use this guy for! Laughing

KathyS I agree with this pea combed fellow's legs. That is another reason I am so tempted to use him. He has the cleanest legs I have seen so far in any Partridge I have had. Watch all the hatches will get the dusty legs from the girls and his ratty pea comb. Rolling Eyes

Briarwood, good eyes on the tail of the other fellow. He does carry it very low and I am not fussed on that at all. He is low man in that pen, so I don`t see him 'oh naturel' much, but it is a bit to low I think. His size is slightly better I think. They are both very broad across the backs but he is a bit broader in his chest. I may try to weigh them and see.

HigginsRAT, they do actually have the black lacing in the hackle and saddle (diamonds) that you talk about. It is very tough to see in the pictures I know. They do not carry up the neck very far, but they are there in both places. It is one thing I do pay attention to! Thanks to someone hounding me about it. Laughing

I will tell you that I refuse to think that they must be double mated!!!!! That is the stubborn part of me coming out. Everyone was telling me the same thing about the exhibition Barnevelders down south and I just refused to believe it. I was able to do it with the Barnies we will see how I go. I guess I will give up having true exhibition males to get really good females, but I refuse to think I can not get males with a blacker chest that produce very nice daughters. We will see, I am still so early into this, but I am stubborn and a bit of a perfectionist, we will see. You can all say "I told you so" when I give up in a few years. Laughing

You are right, most of my female stuff does have a lighter hackle than body and I know some people do not like it. I have 2 hens that are not like this, but most of them are. I actually don't mind it and the picture in the SOP shows this, but the written part contradicts it. Funny. Anyways, I am going to breed to my interpretation for the time being, I may have to change that later on.

DarkWingDuck, everyone likes that pullet that you do. She is a get size and has grown really well, but her pencilling sucks! I am holding on to her because of her size and may use her a little in the breeding pen. I have another hen like her that I have held onto for the same reasons.

I do have 2 younger cockerels coming up that I have great hopes for still. They are from my own birds last season and I really hope one turns into my #1 breeding cockerel because I really don't feel like I have him yet.

Keep the comments coming, I love it! I am looking forward to the upcoming breeding season. (and to all the mistakes I am going to make!) If I could just push these 2 boys together I would be very happy.

DoubleSSRanch

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Hopefully that helps some. Good to have a good visual to comapre to Smile

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coopslave

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DoubleSSRanch wrote:


To me this shows why the bad combed fellow is so attractive to me. His feather quality is very similar. He could use some more black in his neck and saddle, but he does have some. Many have none at all.
It is also difficult to find cockerels with black wing coverts (or wing bars) and the more red fellow is getting them a bit but pea comb guy has great ones.

As RAT ( Very Happy ) points out these are qualities of an exhibition male. They are not always the best ones for the breeding pen though. Rolling Eyes

Thanks so much for the picture DoubleSS, it is a great picture. Gives a very good idea of shape and colour to aim for.

15 Re; Chanteclers on Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:50 pm

KatuskiFarms

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Very nice. Yup,that dark one looks pretty close to the standard. Great job.
Tell me, what is "double mating"?. What did Higgins mean by " that one is cockerel and that one is pullet"?

HigginsRAT


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Last edited by HigginsRAT on Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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viczoe

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Coopslave while I may not be as knowledgeable about Chanties as others I do have the hands on experieance of many years breeding and producing some fair birds. If it was me I would stick to using boy number one comb and all. Combs are a problem in the breed and it is hard to find a truely correct one but I love the attibutes of the first boy although hard to tell in a picture because of angles, is he a slight bit short in body? I would mate him with females the correct topline and good combs and cull hard on combs with the offspring.

While you appear to have good width on both the males and the females becareful you don't get them to chunky and start losing type. I would not go get another male and out cross yet again as it defeats anything you are trying to do.

I commend you for trying to single mate and get good males and females but it has been my exprience with these types of color patterns it will be difficult, but have at her and if find the formula I want to know it. I have found single mating can work with solid color birds as I am sure you already know I find that with cetain colors it doesn't work to get that excellent fine coloring on both sexes. So you go for it and show us the fruits of your labor.

I learn things by trying and not taking what books say you can and cannot do(within reason) and I find also that a lot of books have incorrect info from years gone past. But I will stick to what I say about trying to balance each birds short comings.

May I ask how the chest color on the one boy came about and is this a common problem in the breed and what you expect he will throw color wise?

Kasustifarms:
Double mating is when mating certain types of color and type within a breed will give you better,typed and colored males or females. As for instance in my Black Breasted Red Old English in order to get correctly colored males you have to use females that have shafting in their body color(shafting is where the feather shaft is either lighter or darker than the color of the web) in the case of a good male producing OEG Black Breasted Red female this shaft is gold colored and their basic color is to dark and coarse, they will also have wider with of tail and more length of back. Now in order to get good females that are correctly colored you need to use males that are generally very typey, a bit high tailed and usually oranger in the hackle among other things. When bred to a correctly colored female they will give you females with great type and nice finely stippled color.

In single mating the males and females will give you some good ones of each, which would be easier if you are not concerned about finest of color etc. But as always type comes before color. Hope this makes sense.

Breeding is not quite as simple as reading a book or throwing 2 birds together as I am sure Coopslave can attest too.

Heather

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coopslave

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Tara, I am going to take your stance on combs for the time being and cull hard for them next year.

Stippled Partridge is easily maintained in a single pen breeding system. Double Laced, best to double mate for it. It would be silly for any person to make a broad statement that Barnevelders `must be double mated` or even `single pen mated` since one would not for certain know which colour pattern variety was being wanted.

Down South (no)...you mean the Yanks or are you talking `down under?`(yes)

I know this is a Chantecler thread, but my main breeding has been the barnies so I pull on that experience to try to work my way through the Chants.

We did not have the Partridge Barnies in Australia, so any time I speak of them I mean the double laced. Even the standard here askes for a male breast that is "each feather reddish brown with a sharply defined lacing of lustous, greenish black". If you use a male in the breeding pen with what the exhibition standard asks for you get no end of trouble with the double lacing in your pullets. But you can use a rooster very close to the standard as far as colour and have type perfect and still get great pullets. I know, I have done it. To me that is getting both in one breeding pen.

Heather, I am not experienced with breeding the Chants either, but I am trying to be a BIG sponge. I appreciate all your years of breeding experience and value your comments.
I think you are right, I really do not want to outcross at this stage as I already have a wide variety I am working with.

I commend you for trying to single mate and get good males and females but it has been my exprience with these types of color patterns it will be difficult, but have at her and if find the formula I want to know it. I have found single mating can work with solid color birds as I am sure you already know I find that with cetain colors it doesn't work to get that excellent fine coloring on both sexes. So you go for it and show us the fruits of your labor.

I agree, it may be a flight of fancy, but I am going to try. Ultimately if I have to choose it will be the pullets that win out I am afraid. I don't want to end up with average cockerels and average pullets.

May I ask how the chest color on the one boy came about and is this a common problem in the breed and what you expect he will throw color wise?

I am still learning about this. From what I hear it is the males with some red in their breast that give the better marked pullets. Personally I think too much will be just as detrimental as to little. I would prefer a mostly black brest with very slight red showing on a few feathers. Give me a few years with the breed and I may change my tune on that though. Rolling Eyes
This is the first solid, black breasted male I have had in the 2 years I have been breeding them. Most have very red breasts that I hatch. Last year I kept the biggest male with the darkest breast. He is not the sire of these, they are from a different line that I got eggs from in the spring.

Tara has been breeding them far longer than I have, she may be able to address some of the stuff I may not be quite accurate with.

As for the pullets. Everyone seems to comment on the last girl, the one that Dark Wing likes. She is bigger, but looking at them again today, I think she is much more loose feathered as well. That may be some of the reason she appears fuller and thicker than some of her hatchmates. I am trying to get a tighter feather on the birds. I think that is important in the Chantecler. They are not supposed to be fluffy butts.
You can even see this in the pictures of the pullets. The side on shows the last girl is looser feathered and the other side on pullet has feathers that lay tighter to her body. A trap I will have to watch out for.

I know the converstion is getting a bit more technical, but please feel free to contribute or ask questions. You may notice something all of us have missed. I am really enjoying all of this thank you everyone that has contributed so far!

Dark Wing Duck

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You may be correct about the feather tightness, or lack of it, on the last girl, but her size and shape, based on the picture of course, looks real good! Isn't shape harder to achieve than feather tightness?

KathyS

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Wow! So much excellent information for those working towards breeding the perfect Partridge. Who knew it would be that difficult to produce correct color in both sexes.
(I think I will stick with my white Chanteclers!!!) Wink

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coopslave

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Dark Wing Duck wrote:You may be correct about the feather tightness, or lack of it, on the last girl, but her size and shape, based on the picture of course, looks real good! Isn't shape harder to achieve than feather tightness?

Good point, but I am not sure of the answer. You know what they say, choose type, type, type. That is why she is still here. So many things to think about! Shocked

KathyS, I may be looking to you to get some whites when I am half insane in a couple of years. cyclops Just when you get the whole leg colour thing sorted out I will be ready for them! (maybe you don't even have that trouble)



Last edited by coopslave on Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added a smart a*s comment)

viczoe

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Coopslave in my wheatens and BBR'S the breeder males will have a few red flecks at the end of the feathers but it something that can get out of hand quickly, so I always look for as clean a breast as possible and never want to see that flecking in their cockerel year.

OEG have hard feathers and in my breeding soft feathering should be culled for if possible as it leads to problems with cushion which is bad in both Chanties and Old English. The males will start to develop fluff at the base of the tail, if the females are too soft feathered. It is an imediate death sentence here for any OEG which show any fluff or soft feathering at the base of the tail. A bird with nice tight feathering is a sight to behold.

The pullet should be bred to a boy with good tight feathering and yes type is very important but the old balancing act comes into play.

I am very surpised thou that a boy with that much color in his breast can be used for breeding and I would be very interested to see what type of female you use him on and what he produces should you deceide to use him.

Heather

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HigginsRAT


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Last edited by HigginsRAT on Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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viczoe

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With regard to tail carriage I must disagee that training the bird to pose can improve tail carriage, if that was the case you would only be fooling your self into believing that your bird has a better tailset than it has.

I have shown birds consistently for over 22 years and the best way to gauge tail carriage is to first off with your males and females separate them into pens on there own and with some males if they have not been a dominate bird in the pen give them a few days to relax then take the time to watch and then if possible place another bird beside them and watch what happens with that tail angle and spread. If a bird is squirrel tailed it's goning to show. If you think the tail angle is low it probaly is.

One of the best ways to gauage tail angle for them that are not sure is to use a protractor or "angle thingy me bob!!"

One must be on top of tail angle for birds in the breeding pens as you absolutely do not want to be mating two high tailed birds or vice versa, spread of tail is also important too as in breeds that require well spread tails or whip tails as in the modern games. Of course along with this goes width of feather, but that is another topic.

Heather

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HigginsRAT


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Last edited by HigginsRAT on Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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